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Wake Forest Football Recruiting

I wonder why your high expectations haven't magically improved our recruiting stature
 
Chris, don't be so obtuse: One -- I haven't said "high expectations" magically improve recruiting. Two -- As a miserable fanbase, we don't have "high expectations" for anything. That's, you know, the basis for my complaint, and the essence of the LOWF mentality. This has been argued forever on the boards. Nothing new here.

"High expectations" are a long-term way to place pressure on the Administration to take measures to elevate the program(s).
 
Lohengrin said:
Chris, don't be so obtuse: One -- I haven't said "high expectations" magically improve recruiting. Two -- As a miserable fanbase, we don't have "high expectations" for anything. That's, you know, the basis for my complaint, and the essence of the LOWF mentality. This has been argued forever on the boards. Nothing new here.

"High expectations" are a long-term way to place pressure on the Administration to take measures to elevate the program(s).
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Loh, could you point out some examples of fans not having high expectations on this board?
 
Lohengrin said:
My comments were directed to posters making excuses for recruiting failures. Was that not clearly evident?
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I see. You're a bit hard to follow at times. My impression from reading this thread is that most are happy with the progress and trajectory Clawson has established for the football program. It's too bad we didn't sign one of our top RB targets, but that doesn't mean the program is headed in the wrong direction, especially since we did sign our top targets at QB and other positions. My take is that you are too reactionary and would benefit from looking at the big picture. After missing on RB targets you asked if Clawson is too complacent from his new contract. It reminded me of when West Virginia hit a double against us in the baseball regionals and it prompted you to declare that all ACC baseball is overrated.
 
Rafi, I am looking at "the big picture". That's why I continue to assert the need to maintain pressure even when we "appear to be" on an upward trend. Upward trends in WF history are very deceiving, and fans are taken in precisely because they AREN'T looking at the big picture. The "big picture" at WF is one of isolated successes and a more or less constant historical record of failure. If you examine the Grobe era, you will see the same cycle there as what is occurring now on a smaller scale: Euphoria and confidence that WF was on the right track, all the while recruiting success against rival P5 programs never materialized. The result? A constant and uninterrupted 7-year decline in fortunes from 2006 to 2013 when Grobe ultimately was fired.

When an AD has proclaimed his apparent "success" in athletics by saying our poor results are completely in line with Wake's "historical competitiveness", why would anyone expect the same man to have a radically different approach this late in his life and career? Facilities are great but they mainly prevent recruiting negatives; they don't push us ahead of anyone on our level.

So no, I don't immerse myself in short term gains merely to proclaim that everything is going swimmingly (Sunshine Brigade). I look at the long term record of WF athletics, seeing various alleged periods of success that were clearly dead ends. Please try another angle for your arguments rather than trying to fit me into a desired "narrative" that you'd like to use to continue to make excuses for recruiting failures.
 
There are so many moving parts and so many players involved in football recruiting that its often hard to know when any school gets beaten for a recruit versus losing interest versus moving on.

As an example, after State received a commitment from a DE recruit that WF offered, there was understandable concern on this thread. Then, Deac94 posted that WF may have stopped recruiting him and/or pulled his offer as WF only has a limited number of ships left. So, was the recent State commitment truly a "loss" or did the staff move on to other priorities? We will may never know.

Also, even the best college programs pull in under-the-radar recruits. Yes, WF goes that route more than many, but even following Bama, they will offer recruits that the staff likes, but has not received a bevy of other big-time offers. Unlike hoop where the best play against the best all Summer, and rankings are reasonably accurate, football recruiting is really difficult to fully grasp. We can all agree that a player offered by Bama, LSU, FSU and tOSU is a stud. That's easy. Beyond that there is so much guesswork. At the end of the day, my faith in Clawson and the staff is that I have no doubt that they are working their asses off during recruiting. That may or may not mean that WF will win recruiting battles with the heavy hitters, but it does give me confidence that WF has put in the time and effort to the point where every commitment has the potential to raise the level of the program. That's all you can ask.
 
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The old "we didn't want him anyway" excuse isn't very compelling, to say nothing of the lack of certainty you concede on that point in your post. And it doesn't address the loss to Duke or the loss to (I believe) Vandy earlier. Can someone name *any* recruiting win we've had this year so far going head to head against one of our conference or academic rivals?
 
Lohengrin said:
The old "we didn't want him anyway" excuse isn't very compelling, to say nothing of the lack of certainty you concede on that point in your post. And it doesn't address the loss to Duke or the loss to (I believe) Vandy earlier. Can someone name *any* recruiting win we've had this year so far going head to head against one of our conference or academic rivals?
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Loh, that's why it's unknowable. Is it impossible to believe WF had moved on? First to acknowledge that I have no clue if Clawson backed off the State recruit because: a) WF desperately wanted to kid, but determined he was going to State; v) WF decided that he couldn't help as much as others in the fold or in the pipeline. No idea. That said, football recruiting is different than hoop recruiting. Offers have a short shelf life. So, WF may have offered a kid that committed to State or Vandy or Duke or App State, but it doesn't always mean WF lost a recruiting battle.
 
So, let me see if I've got this right... if we all collectively start thinking like winners, we will start winning on the field and on the recruiting trail? Never mind the fact that the vast majority of high school kids, when choosing a college to play football at (and more especially the top ~250 kids), tend to make decisions based on things like:

- Prestige of the program
- Quality and reputation of coaching staff
- Size of stadium and fanbase
- Reputation of program in developing pro players
- Academic situation where they're required to do very little (despite what we may tell ourselves, based on logic or hope or whatever, very few top prospects want academic rigor... most can't handle it, and the few that can won't prioritize academics over football)

How's my aim?

Wake competes on basically none of that. We compete on high academics, family environment, a blend of ACC ball and getting prepared to be successful in the real world. And I love that about Wake. It basically DQ's us from 95% of the top prospects, but it makes the years where we are successful that much sweeter. 2006 was like a unicorn, and I'll never forget it. The above criteria doesn't mean we can't compete, but you're a disillusioned mo-ron if you think we will ever stack up year-in, year-out with the college football blue bloods. Now I'd argue we should have those elevated expectations in basketball, because what we can offer is more in line with what the blue chippers are looking for, but in football? LOL
 
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Wake competes on basically none of that. We compete on high academics, family environment, a blend of ACC ball and getting prepared to be successful in the real world. And I love that about Wake. It basically DQ's us from 95% of the top prospects, but it makes the years where we are successful that much sweeter. 2006 was like a unicorn, and I'll never forget it. The above criteria doesn't mean we can't compete, but you're a disillusioned mo-ron if you think we will ever stack up year-in, year-out with the college football blue bloods. Now I'd argue we should have those elevated expectations in basketball, because what we can offer is more in line with what the blue chippers are looking for, but in football? LOL
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I believe that is an accurate assessment. Our niche among Power 5 type players is small and unique. There are top flight players that want what we have to offer; but most play for small private schools with less attention and lower levels of competition or they are undersized or they suffer injuries and miss a season along the way...factors that prevent them from being 4* or 5* recruits. The staff must essentially recruit nationally to find such players, red-shirt them and development them into legitimate ACC athletes.
That is a stiff challenge. But I believe Clawson is doing that. It must begin to pay-off on the field, however. We have to begin having more and more 7-5 or 8-4 records and fewer and fewer 5-7, 6-6 seasons. .500 and less seasons must become unacceptable. It is time for that to happen. Now.
 
Whodatdeac, let me make this really easy for you, since you seem to be having so much trouble: If you exchanged our fanbase for Duke's (or select any other fanbase of a successful athletic program), I would guarantee you that we'd have much different, more positive results over time.

Wake's fanbase has become habituated to failure. They don't like it, but it's so common and so normal that they don't see any big deal. They don't expect winning to ever continue, so when it doesn't they shrug and go about their business.

The one thing I remember from my old WF marketing course (maybe the only thing lol) is that "building a better mouse trap does not mean the world will beat a path to your door". Having a good coach and good player development is essential, but it doesn't insure any meaningful success. That can only elevate you to a certain level. You have to market it, and capitalize on it. You have to increase market share. All kinds of metrics that combine for success. As long as your fanbase is habituated to failure, and makes facile excuses for it to salve their pride or their conscience or whatever, the motivation needed to make radical change will never be present. Never. And radical change is what is needed at WF to advance in the field of college sports.
 
The comment about habituated to failure is nonsense. The opposite feeling after having tasted success is why watching Grobe's shitshow for the last 4-5 years was so unsettling. And the exact opposite is why Wellman finally had to listen tot he fans and send Grobe packing.
 
WFU1977 said:
The comment about habituated to failure is nonsense. The opposite feeling after having tasted success is why watching Grobe's shitshow for the last 4-5 years was so unsettling. And the exact opposite is why Wellman finally had to listen tot he fans and send Grobe packing.
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That doesn't support your point. Wellman gets away with mediocrity and failure because our fanbase has a high tolerance for it.
 
Perhaps. I am thinking more that Grobe was the most successful coach ever and thus earned some extra years based on that, when things were obviously in decline. I would like to have seen changes two years sooner than they happened. In any case, I think most fans nowadays believe we can or should succeed. Back in the 70's success in football was viewed as unattainable.
 
A lot of people from the 1970s are among Wake's fanbase, and are influential among Wake's administration. Their mentality infects others in the fanbase to instill the belief in them that this is what we are.
 
Grobe himself said that Wake's ACC Championship and OB appearance were flukes, and that he regretted that Wake fans believed that that success could be sustained. Doesn't sound to me like there was any "taste of success" that impelled us to greater things.
 
WFU1977 said:
Perhaps. I am thinking more that Grobe was the most successful coach ever and thus earned some extra years based on that, when things were obviously in decline. I would like to have seen changes two years sooner than they happened. In any case, I think most fans nowadays believe we can or should succeed. Back in the 70's success in football was viewed as unattainable.
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Power V schools have a big $$$$ edge over the rest of the FBS schools. Realize that, due to the size of the school, WF has some issues that not all FBS schools have, but WF's football budget and facilities are now on par or better than all, but the elite in D-1 football. WF lacks a lot of the reasons/excuses it had in the 60s and 70s when the football program was dreadful. There is no reason why WF cannot be a top 50 program in most years and top 25 program on occasion in the present football landscape.
 
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