What's worse?

[Winkathomelygirl]

You can't honestly say you are "looking forward to watching Jeff coach for a long, long time."

The past two seasons I have convinced myself to go the almost every home game, because I keep thinking "you know, maybe that last game was a fluke or maybe this game will be more amusing to watch," but no. Every single time I go I slowly begin to wish more and more that someone would gouge my eyes out because [Redacted]'s offense is one of the ugliest I have ever seen. He has Carson playing the perimeter, there is barely any slashing or driving to the rim (and it is by and large unsuccessful when they do try that), and all they do is pass it around the three point line then jack up errant jumpers. Each game presents a new reason to fire [Redacted], but alas, he's Wellman's buddy so nothing will change for the foreseeable future.

I am holding out on home games until we get a new coach or until [Redacted] takes his head out of his ass. The only positive I have taken away from Bzz is the apparently talented group we have coming in next year. But then again, what's the point in having good players if the system they work in is total shit?

It appears that the only two logical paths are to hope that Jeff's cultural change is successful and that he is here for a long time or to cry for his immediate dismissal. If we think that he will never succeed, then we should make the change. However, as somebody who (thinks he) understands what Ron and Jeff are doing and who supports the approach, I can only root for long term success. As stated elsewhere, there are those who equivocate, depending on the result of individual games. I am not a member of that group.

 

[deacvision7]

It appears that the only two logical paths are to hope that Jeff's cultural change is successful and that he is here for a long time or to cry for his immediate dismissal. If we think that he will never succeed, then we should make the change. However, as somebody who (thinks he) understands what Ron and Jeff are doing and who supports the approach, I can only root for long term success. As stated elsewhere, there are those who equivocate, depending on the result of individual games. I am not a member of that group.

But to what logical base to you attach this hope upon?

What in Mr. [Redacted]'s history allows you to assume with any logical confidence that it will get better with time?


Take blind hope out of the equation. Annnndddddd.... GO!

 

[Winkathomelygirl]

But to what logical base to you attach this hope upon?

What in Mr. [Redacted]'s history allows you to assume with any logical confidence that it will get better with time?


Take blind hope out of the equation. Annnndddddd.... GO!

Hope isn't logical. By its very nature, it is emotional. I am a student of and believer in systems change leading to cultural change. I think there are two levels at which the cultural change is operating. One is at the Demon Deacon level and the other is thoughout college basketball and college sports. I believe that Wake's best future is to follow the model of the most successful mid-major programs and not try to compete with UNC and Duke on an equal level. Wake needs a system that allows it to be successful with an average level of recruits.

As for Jeff's history, it is impossible to compare Colorado to Wake Forest. I believe that Forsyth County turns out more D-1 basketball players than that state of Colorado. The question is how well can he compete in the current marketplace.

So, I have no logic behind my hope. I just chose hope over hopelessness.

 

[deacvision7]

So you refuse to take blind hope out of the equation. Fair enough.


I hope your blind hope is right and my rational thinking is extremely flawed, my friend. I would LOVE to be wrong about this.

 

[PhDeac]

Hope isn't logical. By its very nature, it is emotional. I am a student of and believer in systems change leading to cultural change. I think there are two levels at which the cultural change is operating. One is at the Demon Deacon level and the other is thoughout college basketball and college sports. I believe that Wake's best future is to follow the model of the most successful mid-major programs and not try to compete with UNC and Duke on an equal level. Wake needs a system that allows it to be successful with an average level of recruits.

As for Jeff's history, it is impossible to compare Colorado to Wake Forest. I believe that Forsyth County turns out more D-1 basketball players than that state of Colorado. The question is how well can he compete in the current marketplace.

So, I have no logic behind my hope. I just chose hope over hopelessness.

Why should we settle for average level recruits when our recruitng has been among the strongest in the ACC aside from Duke and UNC?

 

[DeacdeTejas]

Hope isn't logical. By its very nature, it is emotional. I am a student of and believer in systems change leading to cultural change. I think there are two levels at which the cultural change is operating. One is at the Demon Deacon level and the other is thoughout college basketball and college sports. I believe that Wake's best future is to follow the model of the most successful mid-major programs and not try to compete with UNC and Duke on an equal level. Wake needs a system that allows it to be successful with an average level of recruits.

As for Jeff's history, it is impossible to compare Colorado to Wake Forest. I believe that Forsyth County turns out more D-1 basketball players than that state of Colorado. The question is how well can he compete in the current marketplace.

So, I have no logic behind my hope. I just chose hope over hopelessness.

Why? Success is made with the highest level of recruits

 

[88Deac]

That game almost turned me to Buzz out. That was the most pitiful effort I've seen from a team ever...well until I turned the channel to NC's debacle in Tallahassee. I think Buzz should have been all over guys and in their faces, and that isn't his style. I don't think that has to be your style, but there are times when it is a must, and yesterday after 5-6 minutes of getting pushed around and out-hustled, was the time. I would ahve yanked all the starters and told the next group(walk-ons, whatever) just play all out and show these worthless fuck-ups how the game is supposed to be played. The Wofford game was another game we didn't show up and got spanked.

IT IS REAL SIMPLE: YOU PLAY HARD, WE HAVE A CHANCE. IF YOU DON'T, WE ARE ONE OF THE WORST TEAMS IN THE COUNTRY.

Reminds me of some of Dino's games where we didn't show up to play. I remember one time he benched all the starters for 5 minutes early in the game, and we were all thinking "Finally." And it worked. For 2 weeks. It is hard to make guys with low motors pick it up all the time. But it is Buzz's job and he needs to do it. Period. That is on him as well as the players. That was a joke yesterday. Sad when Ty Walker is one of your hardest workers on a given day. Why can't Carson bring the same energy he brought to the VT and Nebraska games? There are only 30 games/yr. Why can't you bring it all on 30 nights/year? I am very down on Carson. And others. Buzz needs to light some fires, and he should have done it more than a month ago. Ariz St shoud have taught us the lesson about not showing up, but it keeps happening. TOTALLY INEXCUSABLE.

 

[sailordeac]

Let me suggest: we should start the walk-ons in Cameron with the instructions to play all out and the fouls be damned. Hold the ball on all possessions for at least thirty seconds, and anybody who comes in the lane gets hammered.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I have no interest watching mediocre recruits. I would much rather have a coach who can be successful in recruiting AND coaching highly rated players.

 

[DemonDEKEn]

This is absolute bullshit! I have been going to Wake games since 1974 and there have been uncountable times where there's been limited talent, limited crowd support (geez, do some history checking on our performances against UNC when we played under Tacy in GSO) and plenty of years with no depth. This is a historically poorly coached team. Good coaches do not coach up offensive sets that show off how bad their "limited" talent is. I don't give a rat's ass how good a guy might be with all-stars, I care how good he can be with scrubs. That's the definition of a good coach, good motivator and good leader.

And the culture stuff - someone do an actual, factual dump of what the hell we "corrected" culturally at WFU and then I'll listen. Until then, I see it as a coach that has had less control over guys that on the surface were kept in check by a previous coach. Nothing more. If I bring in kids on the margin and keep them in line and you fire me and all shit breaks loose, fuck you, you clean up your shit, don't blame me.

+1
Went to my first WF game in '68. And without a doubt, this is the most poorly coached WF team I've ever seen...yes, even in comparison to the Bob Staak era. Just b/c I can drive fast doesn't mean that I can run NASCAR. This guy's clearly in over his head.

 

[thedeacfan]

I believe that a "factual dump" regarding culture is impossible. Back in the 1950's or 1960's, Buckminster Fuller commented that the only way to see a culture is to stand outside of it. Later (around 1980?) Robert Pirsig wrone a book, "Lila" about the difficulty of cultural change.

When trying to change culture, you have to change systems on a "broad front" basis. That is, each piece of the organization has to change at approximately the same pace as the others. Quick fixes (such as Jeff's immediate resignation) do not affect culture. By way of analogy, compare and contrast Eisenhower's post D-Day management of the war in Europe to the enormous mistake of Operation Market Garden.

Once the systems are in place, they have to be populated with people who fit the system. The system is the key, not the individuals.

Personally, I am very pleased with how the cultural change with Wake basketball is proceeding and I am looking forward to watching Jeff coach for a long, long time.

It appears that the only two logical paths are to hope that Jeff's cultural change is successful and that he is here for a long time or to cry for his immediate dismissal. If we think that he will never succeed, then we should make the change. However, as somebody who (thinks he) understands what Ron and Jeff are doing and who supports the approach, I can only root for long term success. As stated elsewhere, there are those who equivocate, depending on the result of individual games. I am not a member of that group.

Hope isn't logical. By its very nature, it is emotional. I am a student of and believer in systems change leading to cultural change. I think there are two levels at which the cultural change is operating. One is at the Demon Deacon level and the other is thoughout college basketball and college sports. I believe that Wake's best future is to follow the model of the most successful mid-major programs and not try to compete with UNC and Duke on an equal level. Wake needs a system that allows it to be successful with an average level of recruits.

As for Jeff's history, it is impossible to compare Colorado to Wake Forest. I believe that Forsyth County turns out more D-1 basketball players than that state of Colorado. The question is how well can he compete in the current marketplace.

So, I have no logic behind my hope. I just chose hope over hopelessness.

I searched Wink's lengthy posts and found something that I could agree with. There is "no logic" behind her "hope". She is willing to ignore the tremendous amount of evidence that Buzz cannot be a long term success in favor of blind hope. In the process she is therefore willing to condemn Wake Basketball, Wake athletics, and the Wake fan base to many years of this failure. And the culture arguement is still just a bullshit excuse...

 

[thedeacfan]

... This is a historically poorly coached team. Good coaches do not coach up offensive sets that show off how bad their "limited" talent is. I don't give a rat's ass how good a guy might be with all-stars, I care how good he can be with scrubs. That's the definition of a good coach, good motivator and good leader.

And the culture stuff - someone do an actual, factual dump of what the hell we "corrected" culturally at WFU and then I'll listen. Until then, I see it as a coach that has had less control over guys that on the surface were kept in check by a previous coach. Nothing more. If I bring in kids on the margin and keep them in line and you fire me and all shit breaks loose, fuck you, you clean up your shit, don't blame me.

Accurate and EXTREMELY well said!

 

[TheReff]

And UNC's coach is Roy Williams, so they at least they know they'll bounce back.

Roy had that happen here around 1999 or 2000 when he was with Kansas and they still made the Final Four. Meanwhile in the infamous year of getting our first ever #1 ranking, we lost like that on the road at Illinois and Skip could never get us back.

 

[Winkathomelygirl]

Admittedly, I support Jeff for the same reason I voted for President Obama; I'm a hope and change kind of guy. However, there is logic behind the hope in that in any one year, there are a finite number of game changing players that come out of high school. You pick the number. 10? 15? Wake's chance of landing a share of those players coming to the ACC is limited behind UNC, Duke and Syracuse. My argument is that Jeff is building a system that can be successful without those players, by populating the team with players that fit into his system. If a top ten player fits into his system and wants to go to Wake, there is no preclusion of that. However, the system itself should work when its populated with top 50 to 125 guys.

With system change and cultural change, it either clicks or it doesn't. I expect that as we go through this season, we will see the click happen and notice a significant improvement of the team. If I am right, Ron and Jeff will be justified in their approach. As said before, I like to stake out positions and not equivocate.

 

[thedeacfan]

Admittedly, I support Jeff for the same reason I voted for President Obama; I'm a hope and change kind of guy. However, there is logic behind the hope in that in any one year, there are a finite number of game changing players that come out of high school. You pick the number. 10? 15? Wake's chance of landing a share of those players coming to the ACC is limited behind UNC, Duke and Syracuse. My argument is that Jeff is building a system that can be successful without those players, by populating the team with players that fit into his system. If a top ten player fits into his system and wants to go to Wake, there is no preclusion of that. However, the system itself should work when its populated with top 50 to 125 guys.

With system change and cultural change, it either clicks or it doesn't. I expect that as we go through this season, we will see the click happen and notice a significant improvement of the team. If I am right, Ron and Jeff will be justified in their approach. As said before, I like to stake out positions and not equivocate.

Excuse me Ma'am. I thought you were a girl... :noidea: BTW - Since your decision was based on "hope" rather than facts, there is NO chance that you are right. And I have not "equivocated" either. And it appears from the attendance at basketball games thaat a lot of others are not "equivocating". The only way to fill the Joel in the next few years, will be to get rid of Buzz - SOON. That's why I'm BuzzOut - till he's gone.

 

[Fusiondad10]

I've posted so many times the last few weeks and then decided not to submit em. All in the genuine "hope" that my gut and my eyes have been wrongabout what's happening with Wake Basketball. And that things were turning around.

But I'm telling you folks...wise up, cause this isn't working out. There's no telling how long we'll have to endure the "culture change" but it won't be to a winning basketball program anytime under Bz.

After watching us almost back into a loss against VTech, where they finally were able to give us the victory, and then to watch us melt down completely vs MD, only to have them melt down enough for the announcers to call it a comeback by us, and then State, at home, basically making us the joke of the ACC. What's the bigger joke is that neither the coaches or players have a clue as to why it happened, how it happened, or what to fix.

I listened to Bz postgame, and I can honestly say that if i were a player I wouoldn't give a shit what he said, because nothing he's said tothe plpayers last year or this year has had anyeffect of making them a better basketball team. There is one exception, Ty Walker, who has found a way consistently to be a contributor. It's a real accomplishment for him considering his first three years. He's playing now like he should've as a sophomore, and grown from there. If he keeps this up he may geta tryout for NBA just because of the "potential" I'll give Bz some credit for that, except that he hasn't been able to get the player development from anybody else.

So I just say goodbye to this season,. It's full of disappoint, disgust, frustration, and no idea where we're headed, except down. This is a developmental year where we set the stage for the future....yuk.

 

[Adam42R]

I believe that a "factual dump" regarding culture is impossible. Back in the 1950's or 1960's, Buckminster Fuller commented that the only way to see a culture is to stand outside of it. Later (around 1980?) Robert Pirsig wrone a book, "Lila" about the difficulty of cultural change.

When trying to change culture, you have to change systems on a "broad front" basis. That is, each piece of the organization has to change at approximately the same pace as the others. Quick fixes (such as Jeff's immediate resignation) do not affect culture. By way of analogy, compare and contrast Eisenhower's post D-Day management of the war in Europe to the enormous mistake of Operation Market Garden.

Once the systems are in place, they have to be populated with people who fit the system. The system is the key, not the individuals.

Personally, I am very pleased with how the cultural change with Wake basketball is proceeding and I am looking forward to watching Jeff coach for a long, long time.

I am not sure what you are responding to here Phaedrus. I was calling bullshit to post #9 and I still do. As for your dialogue on culture, it might be interesting if it pertained to what I said, but it doesn't. I never asked for someone to give me a factual dump regarding culture, that's nonsensical - I asked for someone to give me a factual dump of what we have "corrected" - and if there is change, that's pretty easy to do.

If you are pleased with the changes that are occurring, good for you. You have a better ability than I do to see something sunny side up when I just see a scramble.

 

[PhillyDeac]

Today's loss can't be blamed on fan support IMO like I just said. Today's crowd was relatively large.

No loss can EVER be blamed on Fan support. What a joke.

UNC couldn't buy a basket. They had a bad game. We suck and we played shitty, there is no escaping that. UNC will blow out their next opponent. We, will not. We won't even win.