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Wake/duke Game Thread

buckets said:
If we keep Collins well be a top 25 squad next year
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We are a top 25 team this year but don't have the coaching to get it done. We have a stud guard, a stud post player and a very good guard, with enough supporting cast to win many more games than we have. It's a damn shame.
 
wfu22fan said:
We are a top 25 team this year but don't have the coaching to get it done. We have a stud guard, a stud post player and a very good guard, with enough supporting cast to win many more games than we have. It's a damn shame.
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The ACC's strength is at SG/SF. It's also our weakness. We cannot stop opposition players at those positions and Collins can only help so much without getting into foul trouble.

The fact that we have done this well completely disproves your post.
 
Maybe I am just not very smart, but we are a bubble team this year and will almost certainly lose our far and away best player with no good options for his position waiting in the wings. I don't see how bubble team is our floor next year. That's counting on a ton of internal improvement imo.
 
WFU Lurker said:
Maybe I am just not very smart, but we are a bubble team this year and will almost certainly lose our far and away best player with no good options for his position waiting in the wings. I don't see how bubble team is our floor next year. That's counting on a ton of internal improvement imo.
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We have the ACC's best returning PG, another guard who scores well and an incoming stud 6'5+ SG, who can score and play D. Obviously, you are correct that we can't replace JC. However, if Doral and Sam can improve just a bit, our D could be much better.

Adding Chaundee and having to massive bodies (and 10 fouls) blocking up the lane should improve our D. JC is a good defender but couldn't afford to get fouls. Sam and Doral can. Chaundee can play an ACC wing on D. Also, by having the big bodies in the middle, our three starters out front basically only have to play their man from the 3 point line to the FT line and then rotate to help Doral/Sam.

Let's get one question out of the way. Why didn't we do this and move JC to PF this year? If Doral or Sam was getting 15 mpg next to JC, our star would not have had anywhere the same amount of room to operate inside. Sam/Doral's defender would have been able to help with JC. Also, it would have taken away penetration lanes from Bryant. These lanes created shots for Bryant, JC and our 3 point shooters.

If we can get Dinos or someone else to hit some shots and get some boards at PF, we could easily be a bubble or better team next year. Another positive for us is the ACC will not be as strong next year.
 
WFU Lurker said:
Maybe I am just not very smart, but we are a bubble team this year and will almost certainly lose our far and away best player with no good options for his position waiting in the wings. I don't see how bubble team is our floor next year. That's counting on a ton of internal improvement imo.
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1. We are actually better than a bubble team but our horrible record in close games, especially against top 50 teams, has left us on the bubble. I know some of you think this is a systemic issue with Manning's coaching that is unlikely to be corrected next year but I find that concern to be vastly overstated. More likely it's a result of inexperience, poor wing defense, and bad luck.

2. Assuming Chaundee is an average defender and performs to his recruiting rank, our defense should improve dramatically without any loss to our perimeter offense (by Chaundee replacing some of Arians' and Wilbekin's minutes.

3. The loss of Collins shouldn't hurt our interior defense too badly. Moore is a capable post defender with some easily correctable habits that keep him from being a dominant post defender. Given the improvement Collins made on that end of the floor, especially with regards to foul trouble, I would hope Manning could make similar progress with Moore in an expanded role. Dinos has improved his defense dramatically and is somewhere near replacement level on that end. SJM and hopefully Sarr can at least provide big bodies down low.

4. The key question will be the offense. Collins is the focal point and the biggest reason we have a top 10 offense. We don't have anyone who can come close to replacing his production in the post. However, we will have a very good, experienced backcourt that can shoot. Depending on how college ready Chaundee is, we will have four perimeter players who can create their own shot (starters + Childress). Also Dinos and Moore each have things they can contibute to an offense which should keep defenses honest while our offense runs through our guards. We won't have Collins as a safety valve but I trust that Manning can put together a top 30 offense out of the pieces we have next year.
 
The way I look at it is: with Chaundee this year we would be at least a top 20 team. Subtract Collins and add experience to a top 20 team and the floor should be the bubble.
 
WFU Lurker said:
Maybe I am just not very smart, but we are a bubble team this year and will almost certainly lose our far and away best player with no good options for his position waiting in the wings. I don't see how bubble team is our floor next year. That's counting on a ton of internal improvement imo.
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We lost our top scorer and rebounder off of last year's team and are better this year and naturally we want Collins back but if not we will figure it out.
 
MichDeac25 said:
If a player has above average NBA athleticism, they can make up for lack of "elite NBA athleticism" in a lot of ways. Crafty, shooting, positioning.
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Sure. I think everyone agrees with that.
 
PhDeac said:
He doesn't have elite NBA athleticism or at least he hasn't demonstrated it yet. He has above average NBA athleticism which is fine. He's not a DJ or Blake level athletic big.
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Collins has been running right up the middle of the court lately and while nobody has Blake athleticism, he has been running right up the gut to the box, hands up, ready to catch and dunk/score. Really nice to see him mature and great work.

Also, I love the jumper and free throws.

These are the guys in my head when I think about where Collins could be in 4-5 years:

Athleticism: not Blake, Kemp or McDyess, but very good.
Jumper: not Horace Grant, Mailman or Oakley, but still at Udonis Haslem level or better. Quickly improving.
Strength: he is still growing. He's going to ge a 6'10" stud with great hands and touch around the rim. Not there yet.
Stamina: Danny goofed yesterday bad by not spelling Collins for 1 minute. Cost us. Stamina will not be an issue.

To me, lotto pick and gone.

And Moore and SJM are a huge drop off next year. Moore can't even stop the basic Amile Jefferson up and under you learn in 8th grade. C'mon man.
 
WFU Lurker said:
Maybe I am just not very smart, but we are a bubble team this year and will almost certainly lose our far and away best player with no good options for his position waiting in the wings. I don't see how bubble team is our floor next year. That's counting on a ton of internal improvement imo.
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Sums up my thoughts.
 
deaconbd said:
We lost our top scorer and rebounder off of last year's team and are better this year and naturally we want Collins back but if not we will figure it out.
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Yeah last year a lot of people were saying we wouldn't be able to replace devin but we did that and more.


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CharlotteDeac1 said:
Yeah last year a lot of people were saying we wouldn't be able to replace devin but we did that and more.


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Were they though? I mean we sucked last year and Devin being a centerpiece was part of the reason. It was pretty clear from what we saw from Collins in his limited minutes that we were going to be able to replace at least most of Devin's production. Replacing Collins' production will require reorienting the offense even more towards the perimeter (first time in a long while we won't have a post threat).

Also, suffice to say, Collins is much much better than Devin.
 
RChildress107 said:
1. We are actually better than a bubble team but our horrible record in close games, especially against top 50 teams, has left us on the bubble. I know some of you think this is a systemic issue with Manning's coaching that is unlikely to be corrected next year but I find that concern to be vastly overstated. More likely it's a result of inexperience, poor wing defense, and bad luck.

2. Assuming Chaundee is an average defender and performs to his recruiting rank, our defense should improve dramatically without any loss to our perimeter offense (by Chaundee replacing some of Arians' and Wilbekin's minutes.

3. The loss of Collins shouldn't hurt our interior defense too badly. Moore is a capable post defender with some easily correctable habits that keep him from being a dominant post defender. Given the improvement Collins made on that end of the floor, especially with regards to foul trouble, I would hope Manning could make similar progress with Moore in an expanded role. Dinos has improved his defense dramatically and is somewhere near replacement level on that end. SJM and hopefully Sarr can at least provide big bodies down low.

4. The key question will be the offense. Collins is the focal point and the biggest reason we have a top 10 offense. We don't have anyone who can come close to replacing his production in the post. However, we will have a very good, experienced backcourt that can shoot. Depending on how college ready Chaundee is, we will have four perimeter players who can create their own shot (starters + Childress). Also Dinos and Moore each have things they can contibute to an offense which should keep defenses honest while our offense runs through our guards. We won't have Collins as a safety valve but I trust that Manning can put together a top 30 offense out of the pieces we have next year.
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I think it's entirely possible we are as good or better next year versus this year. I think next year's team is low floor high ceiling. Your post makes that clear because only number 1 is a given.
 
WFU Lurker said:
Were they though? I mean we sucked last year and Devin being a centerpiece was part of the reason. It was pretty clear from what we saw from Collins in his limited minutes that we were going to be able to replace at least most of Devin's production. Replacing Collins' production will require reorienting the offense even more towards the perimeter (first time in a long while we won't have a post threat).

Also, suffice to say, Collins is much much better than Devin.
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Yes, maybe not you or I but people did say that. We're on OGBoards where the hottest of takes happen. Some people thought we were only going to win 11 games this year so...
 
RChildress107 said:
Barring injury I just can't see us not being at least a bubble team next year.
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Agree to disagree.

I don't think it's hard to imagine a world where Doral doesn't improve enough, where Chaundee isn't ready to contribute, and where Danny isn't able to shape an efficient offense without a reliable post threat.
 
WFU Lurker said:
Agree to disagree.

I don't think it's hard to imagine a world where Doral doesn't improve enough, where Chaundee isn't ready to contribute, and where Danny isn't able to shape an efficient offense without a reliable post threat.
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First one yes, last two no. It's rare for a recruit of Chaundee's stature to not contribute out of the gate. If he is just your average top 20-40 wing recruit he will be a significant upgrade to what we have now. His floor is still better than Arians/Wilbekin.

And based on what I've seen this year I'd put money on us having a top 40 offense next year.
 
WFU Lurker said:
Agree to disagree.

I don't think it's hard to imagine a world where Doral doesn't improve enough, where Chaundee isn't ready to contribute, and where Danny isn't able to shape an efficient offense without a reliable post threat.
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Tough league this year. May not be as deep next year.
 
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