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2017 NBA Draft thread - JC drafted 19th to Atlanta, OUR... Hawks?

Multiple mocks have Markkanen falling to the Hornets at 11. I guess you have to take him there, right? Although that seemingly makes Frank expendable.
 
I absolutely don't get why Kennard is a lotteryish player and Josh Hart is a second round pick. Kennard has not accomplished anything like what Hart has. Kennard is definitely not as good a defender. Whenever Nova needed Hart to score a pile of points he did. Their college 3pt% is almost identical. Their overall FG% isn't very close. Hart's is much better.
 
Kennard is taller, younger, more athletic, and shot better from three on more attempts. He's a better ball handler too.
 
tigerswood said:
Multiple mocks have Markkanen falling to the Hornets at 11. I guess you have to take him there, right? Although that seemingly makes Frank expendable.
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Yes. That would be a gift to the Hornets. Dude is a hell of a player. I actually like most of the PFs in the draft over Frank. JC, for instance, is already better than Frank (at least IMO).

JuiceCrewAllStar said:
Kennard is taller, younger, more athletic, and shot better from three on more attempts. He's a better ball handler too.
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Kennard could be a better Belinelli (who has played some spot minutes at point guard off-and-on throughout his career).
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
Kennard is taller, younger, more athletic, and shot better from three on more attempts. He's a better ball handler too.
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ESPN and Draft Express list them as the same height.

Hart is more athletic and a much, much better defender.

In spite of being the #2 or #3 ballhandler for Nova, Hart averaged more assists and in fewer minutes.

For their college careers, their 3 pt% is nearly identical. Hart is actually a little higher. Even this year, the difference is about 1 make out of every 40 three taken.

Hart led less talented Nova teams to a national championship and a #1 seed the following year.

A difference of 1 year is negligible and a silly concept at 21/22.

Hart has much more experience.
 
RJKarl said:
ESPN and Draft Express list them as the same height.

Hart is more athletic and a much, much better defender.

In spite of being the #2 or #3 ballhandler for Nova, Hart averaged more assists and in fewer minutes.

For their college careers, their 3 pt% is nearly identical. Hart is actually a little higher. Even this year, the difference is 1 make out of every 40 three taken.

Hart led less talented Nova teams to a national championship and a #1 seed the following year.

A difference of 1 year is negligible and a silly concept at 21/22.

Hart has much more experience.
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Why do you think GMs - whose thought processes are represented in mock drafts (in theory) - don't value them similarly, then?
 
The Duke connection?

Why did fourteen GMs pass on Kawhi?

Why did every GM (who had a pick) pass on Draymond? He wasn't exactly an unknown quantity.

Why did so many GMs pass once and many twice on Brogdon this year?
 
palmab03 said:
where's JC pegged on Chad Ford's insider big board?
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16. John Collins


Previous rank: No. 16
Wake Forest
Sophomore
Forward

ESPN 100 HS ranking: NR

Big Board history: He made his Big Board debut at No. 24 in 3.0, moved to No. 18 in Big Board 4.0, slid to No. 21 in Big Board 5.0 and moved up to No. 16 in Big Board 7.0.

Ceiling: At 19, very young for a sophomore. Younger than some of the freshmen on this list. Super efficient post player with a number of moves in the paint. Very strong sophomore season at Wake. Good rebounder and shot-blocker. Emerging shooter. Good athlete.

Floor: Needs to continue to develop a 3-point game. Didn't attempt one 3-pointer in college. Lacks great length for his position.

Draft range: Nos. 10-18

Potential destinations: Kings, Hornets, Pistons, Heat, Blazers, Bulls, Pacers
 
RJKarl said:
The Duke connection?

Why did fourteen GMs pass on Kawhi?

Why did every GM (who had a pick) pass on Draymond? He wasn't exactly an unknown quantity.

Why did so many GMs pass once and many twice on Brogdon this year?
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Hindsight is 20/20. I don't know how that can be emphasized enough, but hindsight is 20/20. Here are some of the justifications that I would make after following each of these drafts pretty closely:

Kawhi was a really undersized center who couldn't shoot at all and didn't have handles. He could've gone higher, but players like Kawhi and Giannis (to name another guy who actually succeeded in this mold) get you fired if they don't pan out. They usually don't pan out.

Draymond was an undersized power forward with average athleticism and a shaky jump shot. That coupled with the previous track record of MSU prospects, getting upset in the Sweet 16 during his senior year, documented attitude issues, and his age probably explains why he was down that far. I don't think he was worthy of a pick much higher than 20, though. (I also am not sure that he would be an All-Star caliber player if he were to play on a team other than the Warriors.)

Brogdon is kind of the same thing. He went too low, for sure, but he was a 24 year old rookie with average athleticism, a shaky jump shot, and questionable defensive upside given his relative lack of athleticism. He should have been a first round pick, though.
 
To be a 100% accurate, Collins did attempt a 3 pointer in college (this past season against Xavier). He missed it.

timdunkandthefunk said:
16. John Collins


Previous rank: No. 16
Wake Forest
Sophomore
Forward

ESPN 100 HS ranking: NR

Big Board history: He made his Big Board debut at No. 24 in 3.0, moved to No. 18 in Big Board 4.0, slid to No. 21 in Big Board 5.0 and moved up to No. 16 in Big Board 7.0.

Ceiling: At 19, very young for a sophomore. Younger than some of the freshmen on this list. Super efficient post player with a number of moves in the paint. Very strong sophomore season at Wake. Good rebounder and shot
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Kawhi was absolutely NOT a center. His one weakness was shooting, but that's something you can fix. He was an elite defender and rebounder for a SF.

Draymond was an absolute leader coming out of college. I wonder what I said about him on the boards before and after the draft.

Even you said Brogdon should have been a 1st round pick. Thus your premise about GMs.

The reality is Kennard has not accomplished as much as Hart. They are the same size. Hart is more athletic. His overall college shooting is better than Kennard's one good year. Their difference in age is absolutely meaningless.
 
Strickland33 said:
Hindsight is 20/20. I don't know how that can be emphasized enough, but hindsight is 20/20. Here are some of the justifications that I would make after following each of these drafts pretty closely:

Kawhi was a really undersized center who couldn't shoot at all and didn't have handles. He could've gone higher, but players like Kawhi and Giannis (to name another guy who actually succeeded in this mold) get you fired if they don't pan out. They usually don't pan out.

Draymond was an undersized power forward with average athleticism and a shaky jump shot. That coupled with the previous track record of MSU prospects, getting upset in the Sweet 16 during his senior year, documented attitude issues, and his age probably explains why he was down that far. I don't think he was worthy of a pick much higher than 20, though. (I also am not sure that he would be an All-Star caliber player if he were to play on a team other than the Warriors.)

Brogdon is kind of the same thing. He went too low, for sure, but he was a 24 year old rookie with average athleticism, a shaky jump shot, and questionable defensive upside given his relative lack of athleticism. He should have been a first round pick, though.
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Who are some players who scouted like Kawhi and Giannis and didn't pan out? I agree nobody could have predicted their trajectories and improvement.

Would you put Johnathon Issac in this category? I'll be disappointed if he doesn't pan out.
 
PhDeac said:
Who are some players who scouted like Kawhi and Giannis and didn't pan out? I agree nobody could have predicted their trajectories and improvement.

Would you put Johnathon Issac in this category? I'll be disappointed if he doesn't pan out.
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I think Isaac is a better bet, to be honest with you. He has a handful of NBA skills and is a proven, versatile defender against elite college competition.

It depends on what you mean, but the player that I'm referring to is the 6'7+ versatile wing archetype drafted in the first round (Paul George also panned out, fwiw). Players scouted like Kawhi and Giannis who didn't pan out:

Jonathan Bender (injuries)
Shaun Livingston (injuries)
Austin Daye (attitude)
Bruno Caboclo (might be too early, but I'm not that optimistic)
Sergey Karasev (might be too early, but I'm not that optimistic)
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist (great roleplayer, though he's probably never going to develop much more offensively)
Al-Farouq Aminu (good roleplayer, could still develop?)
Moe Harkless (a poor man's MKG)
Royce White (attitude)
Jan Vesley (just not that good + bad organization)
Wes Johnson (just not that good + bad organization)

Those are some off the top of my head.
 
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tigerswood said:
Multiple mocks have Markkanen falling to the Hornets at 11. I guess you have to take him there, right? Although that seemingly makes Frank expendable.
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I just can't see them going frontcourt, especially after the Howard trade. Backcourt was the blazing weakness last year and remains so. I think Monk is the target with Mitchell and Kennard in some order behind him, even if Markkanen is there.
 
RJKarl said:
Kawhi was absolutely NOT a center. His one weakness was shooting, but that's something you can fix. He was an elite defender and rebounder for a SF.

Draymond was an absolute leader coming out of college. I wonder what I said about him on the boards before and after the draft.

Even you said Brogdon should have been a 1st round pick. Thus your premise about GMs.

The reality is Kennard has not accomplished as much as Hart. They are the same size. Hart is more athletic. His overall college shooting is better than Kennard's one good year. Their difference in age is absolutely meaningless.
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I think we're on the same page about most of this, but some added context on Kawhi.

Kawhi played power forward and center for San Diego State; I watched most of their games that year. He was an elite rebounder, for sure, but playing in the post and against a lot of lousy competition definitely helped him in that regard. He also didn't have a chance to showcase his defensive abilities on high level competition, as SDSU was a mid-major team, so while prospects like Leonard are touted as elite defensive players in college, there's always the question of whether they can do it on a nightly basis against elite competition. Probably the biggest concern was the fact that he was a career 23% three point shooter and didn't really have any handles.

The relative failure of versatile mid-major athletes like Austin Daye and JaVale McGee didn't help his case, either. Paul George - from Fresno - started to break out during Kawhi's rookie year. I'm guessing that if Kawhi had left as a junior, then he would have easily been a top-10 pick, largely due to George breaking the mold in this way.
 
Strickland33 said:
I think Isaac is a better bet, to be honest with you. He has a handful of NBA skills and is a proven, versatile defender against elite college competition.

[I'll edit this post with a list of failed prospects]
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By "category" was talking about players with Kawhi and Giannis potential. I think he could be great, but I think several players in this draft have that potential. That's why I'd try as hard as possible to get multiple picks in this draft.

I forgot how good Issac's stats were. .508 FG, .593 2PT, .348 3PT, .780 FT. Just about the same in ACC play. He could definitely be a 38% 3PT shooter within 2 or 3 years. He's one of the few players who could develop a KD-like game or be a dominant small ball 4.
 
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PhDeac said:
By "category" was talking about players with Kawhi and Giannis potential. I think he could be great, but I think several players in this draft have that potential. That's why I'd try as hard as possible to get multiple picks in this draft.

I forgot how good Issac's stats were. .508 FG, .593 2PT, .348 3PT, .780 FT. Just about the same in ACC play. He could definitely be a 38% 3PT shooter within 2 or 3 years. He's one of the few players who could develop a KD-like game or be a dominant small ball 4.
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Yeah. Isaac strikes me as a bit underrated. In my mind, he is as good of a prospect as Tatum and Jackson, though obviously a bigger risk. I added some players above. They obviously didn't have Kawhi and Giannis potential, but I don't know if anybody expected Kawhi and Giannis to be that good as prospects pre-draft.
 
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