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College Bball Thread

I love the folly on facebook the day after a Duke-UNC game, each sides fans talking about how bias the referees are, good stuff.
 
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DCDeac said:
The new "emphasis" bullshit is making stars out of foul suckers. Sure, Barber's a good player, but he's taken 224 free throws this year so far. Last year he shot 150 total. Totally changing the game and encouraging soccer-style foul flops.
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And slowing down the flow of the game. Who wants to watch a foul shooting contest?
 
TheReff said:
That is the whole point--to reward the offense and get the defense back to playing defense with their feet instead of bump & run and with their hands.
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Yes, but it's not working. Fouls are way up.
 
zqglass said:
Look at Texas Tech beating Oklahoma for their third straight win vs a top 25 team (Iowa St. and Baylor). I had no idea Tubby Smith was their coach, and I also loved seeing Kingsbury by the locker room high fiving the guys. Having the football and basketball teams supporting each other seems to work pretty well. Seems like it was decades ago since Wake had a similar situation...

[video]https://amp.twimg.com/v/ac504ec1-b0ef-4f20-b204-ac67c0b79c47[/video]
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Tubby got dumped on at Minnesota, given no support and now they have a loser like Little Pitino. They got what they deserved.
 
TheReff said:
That is the whole point--to reward the offense and get the defense back to playing defense with their feet instead of bump & run and with their hands.
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I'm actually in favor of cleaning up the game - but rule changes are colliding with "points of emphasis" and there are consequences. So far the consequences are unbearable free throw shooting contests, offensive players taking advantage by faking being impeded, games taking forever... And the outcome is even worse, because referees are having to choose how and when to call games this way. Most of the marquee games I've watched this year have been called like they were last year. Normal games get the finicky treatment, but only for portions of the game. The refs know if they consistently called every game that way they'd all be 3+ hours and all the starters would foul out, so when a team has a lead or the game's running long, suddenly we're back to normal.

The NCAA has a responsibility not to wreck the game if they're going to try to "fix" it. And they knew what was coming - read these justifications for rules this year:

"Correct unfairness by prohibiting a shooter from drawing a defensive foul by jumping sideways into a defender who would
otherwise clearly miss the shooter."

"Add “faking being fouled by an opponent” - such acts include, but are not limited to, flopping or sudden
movement of the head in an attempt to draw a foul."

"Permit certain defensive contact in low post on player with back to basket and provide coaching and officiating guidelines
for defending post players."

So those rules are basically not enforced at all. Guys are jumping into defenders routinely and drawing foul calls. Head fakes, dives, overreactions to picks - they are commonplace and never, ever called against an offensive player. Offensive post players can lean into a defensive player then suddenly stop and act like they're being pushed - foul on Devin Thomas.

Also they added 6 fouls as an experimental rule only and didn't move to quarters to help with games being in the double bonus for 12+ minutes routinely.

They knew this was going to fuck with the game and did it anyway with half-assed, unenforced rules or rules that simply weren't implemented.
 
Buttermaker said:
Yes, but it's not working. Fouls are way up.
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That is why it is working. One of these days players will learn to play the new kind of defense. It has been said by the NCAA that it is not a 1 year deal but a 2 or 3 year project. We did not get in this shape overnight. We got into this over about 25 years or more. I can remember going to my first officiating camps, at the Fred Barakat camps at 5 Star in Pittsburgh with Danny Ferry as the top hs player & the next year in Radford with JR Reid & Lloyd Daniels. But Barakat was starting to teach the advantage/disadvantage style of officiating that took over mens college basketball, so that was the mid-80's. All we heard from our clinicians like John Moreau, Joe Forte & Dick Paparo, plus some of the young guys like Duke Edsall & George Tolliver was "good no call". That was the mantra which was kept up thru the past few years. If a player didn't lose their dribble, or the shot was made, we were taught to hold our whistles. The game has been relegated into a physical bump & grind. Now we have to wind our way out of it and the NCAA has said it will take some time because the high schools & especially the AAU programs will need to start teaching defense the correct way and college coaches will have to recruit to this better defensive player--not the muscular brute who can't move.
 
TheReff said:
That is why it is working. One of these days players will learn to play the new kind of defense. It has been said by the NCAA that it is not a 1 year deal but a 2 or 3 year project. We did not get in this shape overnight. We got into this over about 25 years or more. I can remember going to my first officiating camps, at the Fred Barakat camps at 5 Star in Pittsburgh with Danny Ferry as the top hs player & the next year in Radford with JR Reid & Lloyd Daniels. But Barakat was starting to teach the advantage/disadvantage style of officiating that took over mens college basketball, so that was the mid-80's. All we heard from our clinicians like John Moreau, Joe Forte & Dick Paparo, plus some of the young guys like Duke Edsall & George Tolliver was "good no call". That was the mantra which was kept up thru the past few years. If a player didn't lose their dribble, or the shot was made, we were taught to hold our whistles. The game has been relegated into a physical bump & grind. Now we have to wind our way out of it and the NCAA has said it will take some time because the high schools & especially the AAU programs will need to start teaching defense the correct way and college coaches will have to recruit to this better defensive player--not the muscular brute who can't move.
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TheReff - when you watch Grayson Allen intentionally jump directly into a defensive player in good position, and then flailing his arms in a half-assed shot attempt - and he's rewarded with foul shots the vast majority of time because the NCAA has told referees to selectively emphasize more defensive contact fouls even though there are rules specifically addressing that play - do you really think that's fixing anything in the game? I get that the refs are just doing what they've been instructed to do - but if you can't see that players are getting punished with excessive fouls even when playing excellent defense right now you must be blind.
 
DCDeac said:
TheReff - when you watch Grayson Allen intentionally jump directly into a defensive player in good position, and then flailing his arms in a half-assed shot attempt - and he's rewarded with foul shots the vast majority of time because the NCAA has told referees to selectively emphasize more defensive contact fouls even though there are rules specifically addressing that play - do you really think that's fixing anything in the game? I get that the refs are just doing what they've been instructed to do - but if you can't see that players are getting punished with excessive fouls even when playing excellent defense right now you must be blind.
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I didn't say they aren't missing some calls but you are just picking out selective players you don't like who you watch and "think" are getting all the calls. They are also working on the principle of verticality and letting the defenders block shots and I saw many times last night where they did just that. Coach K was furious to no avail late in that game and the last play of the game was a perfect example of a defender staying straight up and vertical and defending the UNC shot and Roy was furious about not getting that call. Like I said, it is a work in progress and the game is played & officiated by humans, but the Cat Barbers of the world out to be given free reign to move around and dribble without being held. We are one of the leaders ourselves in free throws attempted are we not? So we get to the foul line ourselves--we just can't make the damn free throws when they count!!!
 
If defenders are being "encouraged" to use their feet and not their hands, is the other side of that being called as well? That is, are offensive fouls being called when a dribbler uses his non-dribbling hand to push the defender away? I've seen that happen numerous times with no call made.
 
TheReff said:
I didn't say they aren't missing some calls but you are just picking out selective players you don't like who you watch and "think" are getting all the calls. They are also working on the principle of verticality and letting the defenders block shots and I saw many times last night where they did just that. Coach K was furious to no avail late in that game and the last play of the game was a perfect example of a defender staying straight up and vertical and defending the UNC shot and Roy was furious about not getting that call. Like I said, it is a work in progress and the game is played & officiated by humans, but the Cat Barbers of the world out to be given free reign to move around and dribble without being held. We are one of the leaders ourselves in free throws attempted are we not? So we get to the foul line ourselves--we just can't make the damn free throws when they count!!!
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I'm not selectively choosing plays, I'm citing an example of what has become commonplace in the game thanks to the emphasis nonsense. The refs "being human" has nothing to do with it. They have been intentionally directed to focus on certain rules and ignore others. They are forcing inconsistency.
 
Skydog Deac said:
I'm always for the visiting team in this series to make the home team fans unhappy.
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And for the visiting team to win on a bad call by the refs or some other controversial play, so that the losers feel like they got cheated.
 
LilburnDeac said:
And for the visiting team to win on a bad call by the refs or some other controversial play, so that the losers feel like they got cheated.
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One team wins & one team loses. Happens in every game so it is always 50% of the fans go away happy & 50% go away mad at the refs. That is just the nature of the beast and why fans is short for fanatics. You see a block/charge in a game one way & the other team sees it the other way. One the court we call them 50/50 calls sometimes because it can all depend on our angle on the play and we disagree when we talk about it during a timeout or between quarters. You see the officials come in and change an out of bounds call when it is missed. You never see an official NOT change that call if his partner has enough guts to come in because we are taught not to come in if we "think" it went off a team and to have them change it, we better "know" it went off the team. Some officials will also ask for the number of the player it went off of so they can tell the coach if asked, just to be sure we are 100% when coming in to change it.

Still, these ACC officials grade out at over 93% in their games. That is why they are at this level. Clougherty uses several NBA guys to grade his game films on their off nights, since they are used to seeing film all the time themselves. Plus the ACC guys carry lap tops and can review plays at halftime that they have questions on if need be.
 
DCDeac said:
I'm not selectively choosing plays, I'm citing an example of what has become commonplace in the game thanks to the emphasis nonsense. The refs "being human" has nothing to do with it. They have been intentionally directed to focus on certain rules and ignore others. They are forcing inconsistency.
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There is a simple solution to all of these problems: If the players just played the game according to the rules of the game all the perceived problems with referees would disappear......and the number of fouls called & free throws attempted would drop dramatically. It is the players' fault that we have come to this point, not the referees.

For many years now the players have basically said "Fuck the rules. I'll do anything I want to do on the court." Fundamentals became "old fashioned" and the game gradually morphed into a circus which is now out of control.
 
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Complaining about the refs calling hand checking instead of the coaches who want to suck all the joy out of the college game by playing rugby rules is bizarre to me. Play actual defense like the NBA forces you to do and the game is a whole lot better
 
TheReff said:
One team wins & one team loses. Happens in every game so it is always 50% of the fans go away happy & 50% go away mad at the refs. That is just the nature of the beast and why fans is short for fanatics. You see a block/charge in a game one way & the other team sees it the other way. One the court we call them 50/50 calls sometimes because it can all depend on our angle on the play and we disagree when we talk about it during a timeout or between quarters. You see the officials come in and change an out of bounds call when it is missed. You never see an official NOT change that call if his partner has enough guts to come in because we are taught not to come in if we "think" it went off a team and to have them change it, we better "know" it went off the team. Some officials will also ask for the number of the player it went off of so they can tell the coach if asked, just to be sure we are 100% when coming in to change it.

Still, these ACC officials grade out at over 93% in their games. That is why they are at this level. Clougherty uses several NBA guys to grade his game films on their off nights, since they are used to seeing film all the time themselves. Plus the ACC guys carry lap tops and can review plays at halftime that they have questions on if need be.
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Do they also teach you to automatically defend every other ref on the planet?

When UNC and Duke play, since I hate both of them, I always want the home team to lose and to lose in a painful way (like feeling they got screwed by a bad call) It has nothing to do with the refs. I just want the UNC fans to leave the Dean Dome as pissed off as possible after the Duke game. And the Duke fans to leave Cameron as pissed off as possible after the UNC game.
 
I think the Duke player moved into the shooter on that final play; but glad it wasn't called.

I haven't been on the boards today, so I may have missed it, but has there been any discussion about Roy? I'm not just talking about last night (which was a horrible example of coaching) but his over-all lack of enthusiasm this season. I think he is coaching like a man who thinks something bad is about to happen.
 
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