I personally like the UNC-hasn't-suffered talking point.
HP's UNC-Cheat Thread - UNC comes out on top, NCAA penalized by UNC
- Thread starter DeaconPeach
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I personally like the UNC-hasn't-suffered talking point.
Complaining about suffering you brought on yourself doesn't find sympathetic ears. It's generally considered whining.
deacvision7
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anybody got a small violin for our boy here?
wfudkn
cookout = blabbermouth?
deacdiggler
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Precisely how has unc "suffered?"
[stepping out of character]....the 2010 defense had six guys drafted, only 1 played a full season. Two years later UNC won the tiebreaker in the Coastal but couldn't go to the ACCCG. They've had scholarship restrictions in football the last several years. I know you guys don't care (and I'm not sure I blame you), but when people say "UNC hasn't been punished..." what they mean is "The banners are still up." Only one of those statements is true. [...eases back into character]
SkinsNDeacs
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Question. Could it be UNC-ch is dragging this out to fight for Olympic
LilburnDeac
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No. What they mean is that the shallowness of their punishment doesn't come close to filling the depths of their transgressions.
Tobacco Road
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I thought that what they mean is that UNC hasn't been punished for the issues we are currently discussing. What jhmd doesn't seem to acknowledge is that their prior punishment was for completely separate violations. Understandable, as they have committed so many violations that it is hard to keep up.
DownEastDeac
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# somanyprongs
Since the NOA was released I have taken a little time each day to check out the UNC message boards. I have been surprised at the celebratory mood and the level of confidence that people seem to have that football and men’s basketball will come away largely unscathed. So I decided to do some further reading and came to my own conclusion that these issues will be very difficult for the NCAA to bring severe penalties. This is uncharted territory for the NCAA. UNC is arming itself for a battle. They retained Skadden Arps. They retained former Committee on Infractions member Jo Potuto. My guess is that the NCAA wants no part of a fight on these issues.
I have zero expertise in this area, but based on my reading here are the two major paths that the NCAA could go down:
Path #1 – Declare the AFAM independent study classes fraudulent or invalid
This path would have the most severe implications for UNC. It would mean that former athletes could be declared ineligible. There could be penalties for Athletic Department employees that knew the classes were fraudulent and used them to maintain athlete eligibility.
This path seems very unlikely though. Mark Emmert has effectively stated that it is not the NCAAs job to regulate academic quality (April press conference).
Surprisingly, UNC has not conceded that these classes were fraudulent or invalid. They call them “irregular”, not fraudulent or invaild. They have not revoked anyone’s previous credits or diplomas. The Southern Association of Colleges (SACS) has done some investigating, but they haven’t declared them invalid either. At least not yet. So how can the NCAA take the lead on this? What standard would they use?
The situation is further muddied by the fact that the Weinstein Report did not find any instances where a grade was given without performing any work. But if the NCAA does want to declare the classes fraudulent they have obvious ammunition. The Weinstein report says that “they lacked several essential components of an academically sound course – such as faculty involvement and grading”. It also concludes that there was no relationship between the quality of the work and the grades obtained. But I just can’t envision the NCAA taking this on. This is also where UNC would probably threaten the biggest legal battle since it would (presumably?) require them to revoke degrees. If they don’t take in on, then the worst offenses will go unpunished. If the classes aren’t determined to be fraudulent, it won’t matter who knew about the classes etc etc.
Path #2: Determine that UNC athletes received impermissible benefits
This path seems more likely, but still difficult for the NCAA. Based on what I read, if the NCAA concludes that athletes received special access to these classes or better grades than the other students in this class then the NCAA could rule that there were impermissible benefits. There are some helpful facts in the Weinstein Report. Athletes made up 47% of the AFAM classes when they were only 4% of the student body. They can look at “add ons” to classes that happened outside of the normal enrollment process. But the Weinstein Report almost goes out of its way in many cases to point out that grades were similarly inflated for all students in the class. So there weren’t really preferential grades for athletes. It also goes on and on about how the classes were similarly abused by the fraternities. After re-reading the Weinstein Report I felt like it almost went out of its way to lay out UNC’s defense for them.
With all this being said, I think the NCAA is dealing with political pressure and I think UNC understands that. I could definitely see how the two parties might want to effectively negotiate a settlement that looks like a major penalty without doing UNC much harm. That way the NCAA can sidestep criticism while avoiding a prolonged legal fight with UNC.
I have zero expertise in this area, but based on my reading here are the two major paths that the NCAA could go down:
Path #1 – Declare the AFAM independent study classes fraudulent or invalid
This path would have the most severe implications for UNC. It would mean that former athletes could be declared ineligible. There could be penalties for Athletic Department employees that knew the classes were fraudulent and used them to maintain athlete eligibility.
This path seems very unlikely though. Mark Emmert has effectively stated that it is not the NCAAs job to regulate academic quality (April press conference).
Surprisingly, UNC has not conceded that these classes were fraudulent or invalid. They call them “irregular”, not fraudulent or invaild. They have not revoked anyone’s previous credits or diplomas. The Southern Association of Colleges (SACS) has done some investigating, but they haven’t declared them invalid either. At least not yet. So how can the NCAA take the lead on this? What standard would they use?
The situation is further muddied by the fact that the Weinstein Report did not find any instances where a grade was given without performing any work. But if the NCAA does want to declare the classes fraudulent they have obvious ammunition. The Weinstein report says that “they lacked several essential components of an academically sound course – such as faculty involvement and grading”. It also concludes that there was no relationship between the quality of the work and the grades obtained. But I just can’t envision the NCAA taking this on. This is also where UNC would probably threaten the biggest legal battle since it would (presumably?) require them to revoke degrees. If they don’t take in on, then the worst offenses will go unpunished. If the classes aren’t determined to be fraudulent, it won’t matter who knew about the classes etc etc.
Path #2: Determine that UNC athletes received impermissible benefits
This path seems more likely, but still difficult for the NCAA. Based on what I read, if the NCAA concludes that athletes received special access to these classes or better grades than the other students in this class then the NCAA could rule that there were impermissible benefits. There are some helpful facts in the Weinstein Report. Athletes made up 47% of the AFAM classes when they were only 4% of the student body. They can look at “add ons” to classes that happened outside of the normal enrollment process. But the Weinstein Report almost goes out of its way in many cases to point out that grades were similarly inflated for all students in the class. So there weren’t really preferential grades for athletes. It also goes on and on about how the classes were similarly abused by the fraternities. After re-reading the Weinstein Report I felt like it almost went out of its way to lay out UNC’s defense for them.
With all this being said, I think the NCAA is dealing with political pressure and I think UNC understands that. I could definitely see how the two parties might want to effectively negotiate a settlement that looks like a major penalty without doing UNC much harm. That way the NCAA can sidestep criticism while avoiding a prolonged legal fight with UNC.
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dot com
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This * infinity.
DeaconPeach
Beer me
1. SACS will make their decision on UNC public on the afternoon of June 11th.
2. The Wainstein report addresses the areas that UNC hired them for. But the supplemental email dump that Wainstein released is where the more damaging information is regarding the fraud (i.e. fake classes in departments other than AFAM, direct requests for specific grades to maintain eligibility, Jan Boxill's deep involvement with athletes & knowledge of the system, involvement of other coaches).
2. The Wainstein report addresses the areas that UNC hired them for. But the supplemental email dump that Wainstein released is where the more damaging information is regarding the fraud (i.e. fake classes in departments other than AFAM, direct requests for specific grades to maintain eligibility, Jan Boxill's deep involvement with athletes & knowledge of the system, involvement of other coaches).
awaken
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This should make those athletes ineligible.
The fake classes is the core issue. Somebody should declare them invalid, however I doubt it will be the NCAA. If those are allowed to stand as valid course credits, how much athletic department wrongdoing can the NCAA assert?
Interesting point about the SACS decision. Is there something that we should read into the fact that the NCAA issued their NOA before SACS had rendered their decision? Does it mean that the NCAA is indifferent to what SACS decides? That seems odd. Might be good. Might be bad.
Is it an NCAA violation to request a grade change? (honest question) It would be a violation if the grade was actually changed in response to the request, but that will be hard to prove with classes where almost everyone was getting an A regardless of the quality of the work performed. I don't think the Weinstein report found evidence that grades were changed.
I may not have read the specific Boxill e-mails that you are referring to. The ones that I have read have a smoking gun feel to them, but wasn't she associated specifically with women's basketball when she wrote the e-mails?
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TheReff
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I hear that UNC-Ch is especially worried about the "NCAA lack of institutional control". That will be the real key to what they receive in most estimations. It is painfully obvious to them they have had problems over almost 20 years with AFAM as they have now gotten rid of any & all classes for athletes that one could have the self study junk. What is going to hinder us casual and not so casual ABC haters is that they also had about 1500 normal students that were taking these classes along with all the other athletes like basketball, football, baseball and especially women's basketball. That could help undo some of the severity of some penalties. In all honesty, 3 banners ought to come down in men's basketball and 1 in women's basketball, but they won't. We are going to have to be happy with a 2-3 year probation and hopefully some loss of basketball scholarships like they did to Syracuse.
ipitytheblue
...
is there an official definition of "lack of institutional control?"
awaken
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You have to believe the SEC and B1g - if not the entire NCAA - are locked and loaded with their own fake classes if UNC skates. Student eligibility would never again be an issue, and "student-athlete" education would become a sham. Employers would view degree received by an athlete with more skepticism than they already do. One step closer to the professional model, IMHO. Why not cut the pretense and just go for it?