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Israel Attacked and its Response

I'm surprised by the general tone of this thread, especially considering that it was revived following the deliberate murder of hundreds of Israeli citizens by Hamas. It's clear that both sides have unclean hands, but there are tactics used by Hamas that cross a line into totally inexcusable: the indiscriminate shooting of rockets placed in hospitals, schools, and mosques with the intention and goal of having those buildings destroyed as justification for further violence; using woman and children as human shields - think for a moment what would happen if Israel used it's children as human shields against Hamas (hint: the shields would be killed instantly). Both sides are responsible for conduct that I think fairly obviously constitutes war crimes, but I'm only aware of one side actually prosecuting their own soldiers for said crimes.

To make matters more confusing, my friends on the left seem to favor an ideology that is incredibly hostile to many of their fundamental ideals. You would not want your wives, mothers, or sisters to live under the Palestinian regime, would you? What about our gay and lesbian friends? We are talking about a state where 40% of the people believe that suicide bombing is justified under certain circumstances. Am I supposed to ignore the protestors throwing up nazi symbols or chants of "fuck the Jews?" Before I'm shouted down or called names, I am criticizing IDEAS, not a race or ethnic group.

And I wouldn't even say I'm pro-Israel. I'm just surprised by how anti-Israel this thread has become.
 
wakelaw13 said:
I'm surprised by the general tone of this thread, especially considering that it was revived following the deliberate murder of hundreds of Israeli citizens by Hamas. It's clear that both sides have unclean hands, but there are tactics used by Hamas that cross a line into totally inexcusable: the indiscriminate shooting of rockets placed in hospitals, schools, and mosques with the intention and goal of having those buildings destroyed as justification for further violence; using woman and children as human shields - think for a moment what would happen if Israel used it's children as human shields against Hamas (hint: the shields would be killed instantly). Both sides are responsible for conduct that I think fairly obviously constitutes war crimes, but I'm only aware of one side actually prosecuting their own soldiers for said crimes.

To make matters more confusing, my friends on the left seem to favor an ideology that is incredibly hostile to many of their fundamental ideals. You would not want your wives, mothers, or sisters to live under the Palestinian regime, would you? What about our gay and lesbian friends? We are talking about a state where 40% of the people believe that suicide bombing is justified under certain circumstances. Am I supposed to ignore the protestors throwing up nazi symbols or chants of "fuck the Jews?" Before I'm shouted down or called names, I am criticizing IDEAS, not a race or ethnic group.

And I wouldn't even say I'm pro-Israel. I'm just surprised by how anti-Israel this thread has become.
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You say the thread has turned anti-Israel but some of those tactics you describe seem pretty…generous…towards Israel’s retaliation thus far.

I’m not anti Israel either and had no substantive knowledge on the topic or history prior to all this but I’ve read the whole thread and don’t think it’s anti Israel at all.
 
I think those are valid points, and this is obviously a situation where there are a lot of bad actors on both sides.

I do think that, while you acknowledge where things are right now, it's missing any sense of historical context as to why things are the way they are now. In my mind, that is due to the way Israel (and their allies) have treated Palestine and Palestinians since 1947, and especially the last 15 years.
 
Louis Gossett Jr said:
I think people have done a pretty good job of explaining they are anti state of Israel and state of Hamas, pro Israeli and Palestinian citizens.
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This. I guess people can willfully ignore that if they like.

wakelaw13, if Israel bombs an apartment building in Gaza, do you just assume it was a Hamas base and any children in that apartment were "human shields?" I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.
 
I don’t think a heavily blockaded and suppressed people are likely to have flourishing democratic ideals, or other social advances. It took decades to get those things in the good ol US of A for much of the population, and that struggle continues to this day. Now add limited movement and access to basic resources and it’s pretty easy to see how that breeds radical violence.
 
PhDeac said:
This. I guess people can willfully ignore that if they like.

wakelaw13, if Israel bombs an apartment building in Gaza, do you just assume it was a Hamas base and any children in that apartment were "human shields?" I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.
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I've read every post on this thread since the latest attack and spent a week reading everything I could on the subject before offering a substantive opinion, which was made in good faith. I don't care for the dismissal of my statements as willfully ignoring others. I understand the concept of what Louis said and I don't think it is an accurate generalization of the thread.

To answer your question, I have never asserted that Israel is without fault. I have never alleged that civilians have not died at the hands of Israeli soldiers or bombs. My point was that there is an ethical difference between the tactics of Hamas and Israel. Only one side of the conflict is actually dissuaded by the presence of human shields. That's where I'm coming from.
 
You didn’t answer my question and I’m more confused. What are “human shields” if you think one side is dissuaded?
 
Except that isn’t really true. One side is the occupier and one side is the occupied.
 
PhDeac said:
You didn’t answer my question and I’m more confused. What are “human shields” if you think one side is dissuaded?
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Yes I did. I think Israel is responsible for many civilian deaths, but the civilian deaths were not the intended goal of the attack. I know that Israel has warned and evacuated buildings before bombing them. I have not ever heard of Hamas doing that. Israeli soldiers have been responsible for war crimes and actually prosecuted. When has Hamas prosecuted one of their soldiers for a war crime? They haven't, because killing civilians is the point.

If you cannot see an ethical difference between the tactics of the two groups, even after what just happened a week ago, I don't think we need to engage further.
 
wakelaw13 said:
I've read every post on this thread since the latest attack and spent a week reading everything I could on the subject before offering a substantive opinion, which was made in good faith. I don't care for the dismissal of my statements as willfully ignoring others. I understand the concept of what Louis said and I don't think it is an accurate generalization of the thread.

To answer your question, I have never asserted that Israel is without fault. I have never alleged that civilians have not died at the hands of Israeli soldiers or bombs. My point was that there is an ethical difference between the tactics of Hamas and Israel. Only one side of the conflict is actually dissuaded by the presence of human shields. That's where I'm coming from.
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I don't think that only one side of the conflict is "actually dissuaded by the presence of human shields".
 
Well the tactics of one of the two groups has been to enclose their occupied into one of highest populated density areas in the world, with no way to leave, while they control the amount of water, hospital supplies, and basically any import into that region.

I think that is as barbaric as what happened last week if we must get in the game of "which is worse?".
 
Deacsfan27 said:
I don't think that only one side of the conflict is "actually dissuaded by the presence of human shields".
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Then we can disagree. I do not think the goal of the Israeli armed forces is to kill civilians. Clearly, that is an intended goal of Hamas.
 
wakelaw13 said:
Yes I did. I think Israel is responsible for many civilian deaths, but the civilian deaths were not the intended goal of the attack. I know that Israel has warned and evacuated buildings before bombing them. I have not ever heard of Hamas doing that. Israeli soldiers have been responsible for war crimes and actually prosecuted. When has Hamas prosecuted one of their soldiers for a war crime? They haven't, because killing civilians is the point.

If you cannot see an ethical difference between the tactics of the two groups, even after what just happened a week ago, I don't think we need to engage further.
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This is pretty dumb. If you can’t make a distinction between inherent violence of Israel’s apartheid occupation, (they frequently kill civilians), starve them, restrict their movement, incarcerate them. And the violence that stems from that occupation, “i don’t think we need to engage further”
 
PhDeac said:
Yet they bomb civilian targets.
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Hamas places rocket launchers in civilian targets for the exact purpose of seeing them destroyed.
Deacsfan27 said:
They literally just dropped white phosphorous on a children's hospital 3 days ago.
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My understanding is that this has been alleged and not proven, but I've never claimed Israel is innocent, but rather that there is an ethical difference in their tactics.
 
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