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Israel Attacked and its Response

dartsndeacs said:
Lost in your history lesson was shortly before hamas won the election they were responsible for most of the attacks against Israel leading up to it, a vast majority of Palestinians (80%) wanted Hamas to seek peace with Israel , and after the election given they were given the chance to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist Hamas refused to do so.

So I think where most disagree is who made the poor choices.
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You’ve repeated the “Right to Exist” point - this is not the same as peace. The demand that “Israel” be allied to exist is for many Palestinians a demand that what they consider to be “Palestine”, “from the river to the sea” - their ethnic-religious birthright, be surrendered, given away forever. That is not the same as demanding peace. Having this concession demanded is also to many of them a force of colonial aggression, the same threat that you hear of Palestinians wanting to destroy Israel.

You’re of the mind that one people deserve to claim this land, having won a war, and that the other lost a war and needs to concede the land. There will never be peace under those terms. Especially not when Israel has long ago expanded their settlements beyond those borders established in the war, quite literally stealing homes from Palestinians every month.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
You’ve repeated the “Right to Exist” point - this is not the same as peace. The demand that “Israel” be allied to exist is for many Palestinians a demand that what they consider to be “Palestine”, “from the river to the sea” - their ethnic-religious birthright, be surrendered, given away forever. That is not the same as demanding peace. Having this concession demanded is also to many of them a force of colonial aggression, the same threat that you hear of Palestinians wanting to destroy Israel.

You’re of the mind that one people deserve to claim this land, having won a war, and that the other lost a war and needs to concede the land. There will never be peace under those terms. Especially not when Israel has long ago expanded their settlements beyond those borders established in the war, quite literally stealing homes from Palestinians every month.
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To the winner goes the spoils. There’s been plenty of peace throughout history when one side loses land in a war. Some Palestinians are just continuing to make poor choices, and it’s had a terrible effect on their quality of life.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
I don’t have to support Hamas massacring civilians in 2023 to recognize that they represent the angry fight for liberation in Gaza due to 20 year old socio-political circumstances, mostly of Israel’s poor choosing.
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Hamas does not represent “the angry fight for the liberation in Gaza…”. Hamas couldn’t give a rat’s ass about Gaza. When the Israelites dropped leaflets telling Gazans to leave the north, Hamas told them to stay. They blocked roads south. And, by the way, they haven’t held an election since 2006. There was an election scheduled for January 2021, but somehow, miraculously, it was indefinitely postponed.

Hamas would gladly sacrifice every civilian in Gaza if it meant the destruction of Israel.
 
Asking cause I’m not sure. Is “Israelite” the proper nomenclature?
 
dartsndeacs said:
To the winner goes the spoils. There’s been plenty of peace throughout history when one side loses land in a war. Some Palestinians are just continuing to make poor choices, and it’s had a terrible effect on their quality of life.
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Man, you really suck sometimes.
 
Really liked this statement a group within the company I work for put out:

Our hearts are broken at the situation unfolding in Palestine and Israel.

The Social Justice Initiative are releasing this statement as a guide for compassionate conversation. Everyone is hurt, and everyone holds bias, whether it be conscious or unconscious. This means that you should not be expecting impartiality from people. What you should be expecting, and what we expect you to have, is the ability to listen to and respect one another through these times and conversations; we are colleagues that hold space for each other and hold fast to each other in times of turmoil. Please do not lose sight of this.

Language is crucial to us as publishers. We’re therefore asking you to use it wisely, and not to make wild, unsubstantiated judgements and conflations. Jewishness is not the same thing as Zionism. Saying ‘Free Palestine’ does not align a person with Hamas. Being Israeli and being Palestinian are multifaceted identities, with humans that contain beautiful and intricate diverse views and notions. Do not flatten them with uneducated stereotypes of what constitutes and defines a people.

Let us be led, how we always have, by research, by our commitment to social justice, and by our determination to stand by one another. Let us be led by academics and researchers who have studied this conflict and this region for years. Let us be led by our vision, because by building the bridge to knowledge, we build the bridge to understanding.

We’ll hold space for all, as we always have done.
 
Shorty said:
There was an election scheduled for January 2021, but somehow, miraculously, it was indefinitely postponed.
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you reference something and aren’t even familiar with it - Fatah President Abbas and Hamas mutually agreed to indefinitely postpone the election because Israel would not allow the East Jerusalem territory to participate in the election.
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TownieDeac said:
Really liked this statement a group within the company I work for put out:

Our hearts are broken at the situation unfolding in Palestine and Israel.

The Social Justice Initiative are releasing this statement as a guide for compassionate conversation. Everyone is hurt, and everyone holds bias, whether it be conscious or unconscious. This means that you should not be expecting impartiality from people. What you should be expecting, and what we expect you to have, is the ability to listen to and respect one another through these times and conversations; we are colleagues that hold space for each other and hold fast to each other in times of turmoil. Please do not lose sight of this.

Language is crucial to us as publishers. We’re therefore asking you to use it wisely, and not to make wild, unsubstantiated judgements and conflations. Jewishness is not the same thing as Zionism. Saying ‘Free Palestine’ does not align a person with Hamas. Being Israeli and being Palestinian are multifaceted identities, with humans that contain beautiful and intricate diverse views and notions. Do not flatten them with uneducated stereotypes of what constitutes and defines a people.

Let us be led, how we always have, by research, by our commitment to social justice, and by our determination to stand by one another. Let us be led by academics and researchers who have studied this conflict and this region for years. Let us be led by our vision, because by building the bridge to knowledge, we build the bridge to understanding.

We’ll hold space for all, as we always have done.
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This is in awesome statement. Thanks for sharing.
 
Gaza and the West Bank have agreed to multiple elections in the past 15 years, this is all on Wikipedia. These never come to fruition because the Israeli occupied West Bank will not allow candidates to run who do not recognize agreements signed between the PLO and Israel. Bluntly, Israel will not allow any Hamas candidates to run unless they renounce Hamas, so…how is an election possible under those terms?
 
It’s pretty easy for Israel to say that Gaza and Palestine are undemocratic and won’t hold elections, when Israel refuses to let Palestinians hold an election under their own terms, and Israel refuses to let all Palestinians participate in the election.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Gaza and the West Bank have agreed to multiple elections in the past 15 years, this is all on Wikipedia. These never come to fruition because the Israeli occupied West Bank will not allow candidates to run who do not recognize agreements signed between the PLO and Israel. Bluntly, Israel will not allow any Hamas candidates to run unless they renounce Hamas, so…how is an election possible under those terms?
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I can't imagine why Israel doesn't want to allow candidates representing an organization that wants to destroy them to run.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
It’s pretty easy for Israel to say that Gaza and Palestine are undemocratic and won’t hold elections, when Israel refuses to let Palestinians hold an election under their own terms, and Israel refuses to let all Palestinians participate in the election.
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Has the UN ever stepped in and tried to coordinate elections for Palestine? Effectively remove Israel from their oversight role, or is it just not a practical solution?
 
Liquid Karma said:
I can't imagine why Israel doesn't want to allow candidates representing an organization that wants to destroy them to run.
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I can’t imagine why a nation of ethnic prisoners denied the right to return to their homeland would recognize the legitimacy of the apartheid state imprisoning them. We go in circles on this topic all day - righteousness is not going to win any arguments.
 
People are not a state, a state is not people. States do not have the right to exist. People have the right to exist. People do not have the right to form or maintain ethnostates. Israel has no more right to exist than Palestine does, and vice versa.
 
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myDeaconmyhand said:
I can’t imagine why a nation of ethnic prisoners denied the right to return to their homeland would recognize the legitimacy of the apartheid state imprisoning them. We go in circles on this topic all day - righteousness is not going to win any arguments.
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myDeaconmyhand said:
People are not a state, a state is not people. States do not have the right to exist. People have the right to exist. People do not have the right to form or maintain ethnostates. Israel has no more right to exist than Palestine does, and vice versa.
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You just posted these two things within 5 minutes of each other.
 
The main characteristic of Israel defining it as an Apartheid state is that the global diaspora of Jews are granted a right of citizenship while Palestinian Muslims are permanently displaced, denied citizenship, and their right to return is not recognized.
 
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