Pulse of the Fanbase: End of Year 2 of the Manning Era

[buckets]

Meh. I know it's crazy to look back and think that we beat the #1 team in the Big 10, but I'm not convinced that we necessarily got worse as the season went on. The way I see it:

Who got worse? Dinos' and Wilbekin's shots disappeared, but I'm not sure how that is Manning's fault. I thought they both did a much better job defensively and Dinos even started to show a flash of grit on the boards towards the end. Crawford started playing much better on the ball defense. Collins' defense improved as well as his dribble drive. It's hard to say whether Moore progressed but I think everyone is excited about his potential. Rondale was playing smarter, more composed ball. I also think that team defense will be much better without DT next year. He rebounded well at the expense of not contesting shots. Not to say that strategy doesn't have it's advantages considering DT was not a shot blocker and it usually leads to fewer offensive rebounds for the opponent, but give me a rim protector like Moore any day.

We lost games, and in the end, that's the bottom line. We clearly have a lot of work to do in the last 4 minutes of games. That's impossible to deny. Several games were lost in the last 4 - 5 minutes. Some of that was definitely coaching, some of it was youth, and some of it was a lack of depth. I see all 3 of those as correctable over the next year or 2.

So no individual player got worse but our season fell off a cliff from a potential bubble team to the basement of the ACC again.... What could explain that??? Coaching maybe?!

 

[Demonwolverine]

I can see your point about SEC vs ACC and apples vs oranges, but blanket conference comparison without taking into consideration the schools each coach is coaching at skews it in our favor and makes Manning look better than what he actually is. Coaching and rebuilding at Wake should be easier than Auburn. We are a basketball school with some tradition and two players currently in the NBA that everyone knows about. Auburn, minus a fairly new stadium, has no tradition, no NBA players, and is located in the heart of a football crazed state in which nobody cares about basketball.

Looking at that, why is Wake Forest such a hard rebuild job? Inside the ACC you are telling me that Miami, FSU, Georgia Tech, Clemson, Virginia Tech are easier rebuild jobs? Comparing us to Miami, a broke school in a crime ridden city, who might be competing for another ACC championship this weekend while we are stuck at home is a better job? Lets be honest, Wake is a tough rebuild job due to academics (especially Tuesday) but we should at least be competitive and competent as opposed to what we have seen for the past 6 years.

No doubt about it. We SHOULD have been an easier turn around job. The reality is though that [name redacted] did a real number on every inch of our program. DM has had 2 classes with no players, players with little talent that weren't his (though most are gone now) and a completely dejected fan base.

Look, I am not the sunshine brigade. I suppose you could view me as a DM apologist, but barring a HUGE coaching hire, I also went into this expecting it to take 3 years to cleanse [name redacted's] players from the team, and another 2 just to regain some face. I am optimistic that we will have more pieces next year to be competitive. There are some predictable aspects of next year though: We will be young, so we will be erratic at times. We will be inconsistent for stretches. The real challenge will be to analyze the mistakes and ask yourself whether they are just because of youth, or because of poor coaching. It won't be easy, and I expect it to be very controversial.

For example, it is one thing to ridicule the play call at the end of the NC State game. Personally, I disagree with the notion of A: not going for 2 and a quick foul, B: Drawing up a play for Wilbekin at all and C: The same play that we had just run a minute or so earlier out of a TO or inbound (I can't remember). Those are coaching discussions. What I won't sit here and listen to is how DM should fix our FT shooting, bench our freshman PG every time he makes a mistake or lets the ball roll up the court, or some how speed up the aging process of our players. There is a difference in bad coaching and poor play, and while they CAN be correlated, they aren't always.

 

[Demonwolverine]

So no individual player got worse but our season fell off a cliff from a potential bubble team to the basement of the ACC again.... What could explain that??? Coaching maybe?!

Maybe. And you could attribute the fact that we were a disaster in the last 4 minutes of every game to coaching. I'm not saying DM is perfect, I personally just think his problems are very correctable, except for maybe recruiting.

 

[tvcigar]

Win more games on Saturday and Sunday and you will never have to play on the Tuesday of the ACC Tournament.

 

[RacerDeac]

Maybe. And you could attribute the fact that we were a disaster in the last 4 minutes of every game to coaching. I'm not saying DM is perfect, I personally just think his problems are very correctable, except for maybe recruiting.

Who is going to correct them? You can only correct mistakes by trying new things. DM has shown the tendency to do the exact opposite.

The whole idea of learning from your mistakes is predicated on the idea of not making the same mistakes over and over and over and over and over again.

 

[Demonwolverine]

Who is going to correct them? You can only correct mistakes by trying new things. DM has shown the tendency to do the exact opposite.

The whole idea of learning from your mistakes is predicated on the idea of not making the same mistakes over and over and over and over and over again.

It's his job to correct them. If he doesn't then he should be fired. I'm just trying to put myself in the Man's shoes thumbsup and when I do, I see a team that needed to fix all 40 minutes of basketball going into last year. I think he has fixed about 30 of those minutes, but still has some cleaning up to do. What I do see are better defensive rotations and stances, better offensive sets, and more balanced scoring opportunities. I would love to say a more balanced offense, but we still can't shoot. Hopefully that will be corrected with the incoming class.

 

[DCDeac]

Next year will be hugely telling.

As we watch the shattered Codi/Devin/Cav/Moto class exit, posters are rightly pointing out there was solid talent in that class. But the talent wasn't *that* high compared to Wake's history, the class was far too large, and the classes surrounding it were pure garbage.

Manning's first "impact" class comes a year earlier, all 3 players have higher ceilings than the best 3 of that class, and there are only 3 of them instead of 7 (desperation move). However, next year's class is underwhelming on paper, and Manning's first "mini class" didn't improve much this year in Dinos/Wilbekin. Will Woods even that class out as a missing piece? Will Donovan Mitchell overachieve? Is SJM the 4 star upside center people saw a couple years ago or an unranked project after disappearing in the UK this year? If the surrounding classes disappoint and our freshmen struggle to adjust - this starts looking a whole lot like [Redacted] 2.0 beyond just this year's conference record.

And speaking of the record this year... Was it a fluke year where we played well in a lot of conference games against good teams and lost, then played shitty against bad conference teams and still lost? If Manning is just an idiot who can't coach and doesn't care, how did we start off so well with a limited team and then fall apart? Did he quit coaching? Was Kenpom on the money and it was just luck? Does coaching have anything to do with Dinos missing dozens of wide open 3's in conference play?

Ever the optimist - I lean towards this being a year that just got away from us and UVA as the game that broke us. I think we'll be better off without Codi and Devin. I think Manning is stubborn but that he was also let down by some very poor individual play, and sometimes you can't hide getting 5 or fewer points from your 2 and 3 spots combined through coaching. I liked the matchup zone he broke out for the last few games. Crawford ended up tied for 5th in the conference in assists, was ahead of guys like Paige, Vasuria, Gill, and Bibbs in points, and was 2nd in the conference in steals. The absurd final 3 pointer aside, watching him go up against Barber head-to-head as a freshman in his first ACC Tournament game has to speak to his ceiling.

That being said, if we open up 1-6 or something next year in conference, all optimism will be pretty much crushed. This was the last year of "potential without results" mattering at all - same position football will be with Clawson next year.

 

[marquee moon]

Next year will be hugely telling.

As we watch the shattered Codi/Devin/Cav/Moto class exit, posters are rightly pointing out there was solid talent in that class. But the talent wasn't *that* high compared to Wake's history, the class was far too large, and the classes surrounding it were pure garbage.

Manning's first "impact" class comes a year earlier, all 3 players have higher ceilings than the best 3 of that class, and there are only 3 of them instead of 7 (desperation move). However, next year's class is underwhelming on paper, and Manning's first "mini class" didn't improve much this year in Dinos/Wilbekin. Will Woods even that class out as a missing piece? Will Donovan Mitchell overachieve? Is SJM the 4 star upside center people saw a couple years ago or an unranked project after disappearing in the UK this year? If the surrounding classes disappoint and our freshmen struggle to adjust - this starts looking a whole lot like [Redacted] 2.0 beyond just this year's conference record.

And speaking of the record this year... Was it a fluke year where we played well in a lot of conference games against good teams and lost, then played shitty against bad conference teams and still lost? If Manning is just an idiot who can't coach and doesn't care, how did we start off so well with a limited team and then fall apart? Did he quit coaching? Was Kenpom on the money and it was just luck? Does coaching have anything to do with Dinos missing dozens of wide open 3's in conference play?

Ever the optimist - I lean towards this being a year that just got away from us and UVA as the game that broke us. I think we'll be better off without Codi and Devin. I think Manning is stubborn but that he was also let down by some very poor individual play, and sometimes you can't hide getting 5 or fewer points from your 2 and 3 spots combined through coaching. I liked the matchup zone he broke out for the last few games. Crawford ended up tied for 5th in the conference in assists, was ahead of guys like Paige, Vasuria, Gill, and Bibbs in points, and was 2nd in the conference in steals. The absurd final 3 pointer aside, watching him go up against Barber head-to-head as a freshman in his first ACC Tournament game has to speak to his ceiling.

That being said, if we open up 1-6 or something next year in conference, all optimism will be pretty much crushed. This was the last year of "potential without results" mattering at all - same position football will be with Clawson next year.

 

[pourdeac]

Who is going to correct them? You can only correct mistakes by trying new things. DM has shown the tendency to do the exact opposite.

The whole idea of learning from your mistakes is predicated on the idea of not making the same mistakes over and over and over and over and over again.

Or he's installing a system/process and sticking to it, and those "mistakes" are due to players not fitting in. We know CMM didn't fit in for some reason, and DT obviously stopped caring...and those were the team leaders. I doubt any of Manning's recruits have those issues as seniors, do you?

 

[marquee moon]

I'd love to know RJ's thoughts

 

[RacerDeac]

I'd love to know RJ's thoughts

LOL. I went over the other board to see how the sunshine brigade was responding to the end of the season and it looks just like things once looked here. It's thread after thread of RJ getting into arguments with people, calling them idiots and claiming victim status.

 

[RacerDeac]

Or he's installing a system/process and sticking to it, and those "mistakes" are due to players not fitting in.

Okie dokie.

I remember when [name redacted] showed no evidence of being a good coach to the players he inherited, but a few were adamant that he would turn it around when he got his players for his system. So, we got the Sensational Seven and the rest is history(cally uncompetitive)...

 

[Dutch Deacon 65]

Still hoping that DM will decide to hang it up and go back to Kansas. Nothing I saw at the home or away games makes me think that he can do the job.

 

[morrison2951]

If DM does bail, as his last move at MSD, RW needs to back up the Brinks truck in Boston to wrestle away Brad Stevens from the NBA and then.... away we finally go with the long awaited return to the NCAAT! :thumbsup:

 

[Ayo]

Or he's installing a system/process and sticking to it, and those "mistakes" are due to players not fitting in.

This is such a dumb argument.

 

[Demonwolverine]

If DM does bail, as his last move at MSD, RW needs to back up the Brinks truck in Boston to wrestle away Brad Stevens from the NBA and then.... away we finally go with the long awaited return to the NCAAT! :thumbsup:

Well, it is March now. At least 2 coaches are about to get stolen away from mid majors after an NCAA tourney win shines some light on the job they've done.

 

[pourdeac]

Okie dokie.

I remember when [name redacted] showed no evidence of being a good coach to the players he inherited, but a few were adamant that he would turn it around when he got his players for his system. So, we got the Sensational Seven and the rest is history(cally uncompetitive)...

Haha...well, like it or not, that's just how things go. Coaches need time to install their systems and get players that relate to them and fit their personality/style. That's why most coaches get 3-5 years to prove themselves before getting the axe. Reality dude.

IMO This entire post-Skip saga comes down to that dynamic. Bz couldn't relate to the players that were here because he's sort of extreme on the personality scale compared to Dino. He brought in players that fit his coaching/personality (as close as possible). That's what Manning has to deal with....and clearly had problems coaching players that came here to play for Bz. So I don't think it's just a matter of coaching ability, it's personality/fit. Been saying that for a long long time.

 

[ThinkingWithMyDeac]

LOL. I went over the other board to see how the sunshine brigade was responding to the end of the season and it looks just like things once looked here. It's thread after thread of RJ getting into arguments with people, calling them idiots and claiming victim status.

You mean you don't miss stuff like.

1. Or am I not allowed to hit back?
But don't let the EVIDENCE YOU provided get in the way of your BS.

2.You have gone WAAAAY WAAAY over the line. How FRICKIN dare you call me or anyone here a "sociopath"
There is NO EXCUSE for EVER saying that.

3.It's perfectly OK not to like each other. But what you did is disgraceful.
The fact you just confirmed your post shows how terrible your character is
If you have any conscience, class or manners, you don't do what you have done here.

4. The fact you REFUSE to admit how wrong you were, and are, and REFUSE to apologize illustrates that everyone here is "better" than you.

My favorite, remember the attack was calling him sociopath
5.What's very sad is that you can't hold Thermos responsible the most despicable, personal attack I've seen on these boards in decades. I can't believe you say how wrong he is.

 

[pourdeac]

This is such a dumb argument.

Really? So it was all just an illusion that Bz recruited seniors, players that came here to play for Bz...the team leaders.....totally screwed the pooch in the second half of the season? Do you think their behavior was Manning's fault? I don't.

What's dumb is thinking that good coaches just go out and are so dang good they can turn any turd player into a superstar because they're just that good. IMO its way more complicated and difficult, especially when inheriting the remnants of an odd-ball coach like Bz.

 

[Strattocaster]

In contrast to Buzz Williams, Bruce Pearl just finished his 2nd season at Auburn dead last in the SEC after getting blown out in the SEC Tournament play-in game last night. I don't think there are many people that would say Bruce Pearl can't coach, or that he can't motivate his players. These major turnarounds are more difficult than they seem.

We may not have a complete coach in DM, but I think his in game coaching problems are very correctable. Recruiting is more of a concern in my book, but I'm not throwing in the towel on him just yet. Especially given our freshmen.

Speaking of Bruce Pearl. A guy I work with is on the BOT at Auburn and hangs out with Pearl pretty regurlarly on the weekends. I constantly give him shit and ask him what a 5 star is going for these days.