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Saudi World Golf Tour 2022/2023 Thread

mebanedeac said:
The missed fairway on 17 was crucial; yet, he still had a very make able putt on 18 to win with a birdie. His putt was shorter than Webb's though perhaps more difficult; but still make able.

Putting under pressure is, I think, what separates pros. Yesterday, Webb's putting was masterful.
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Finau has improved his putting, but he's still not a great putter. He hits it so good, he doesn't have to be a great putter to win, but he needs to be able to make clutch tournament winning putts and I think that's holding him back a bit.
 
USGA and R&A to look at changes to equipment, including balls, to limit future related distance increases. Better late than never. No link handy - read it in the fish wrapper.
 
Buttermaker said:
USGA and R&A to look at changes to equipment, including balls, to limit future related distance increases. Better late than never. No link handy - read it in the fish wrapper.
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Can’t disagree with this. With the distances players can now hit the ball, many courses are becoming obsolete or require significant redesigns (and cost) to lengthen them.
 
Dekin said:
Can’t disagree with this. With the distances players can now hit the ball, many courses are becoming obsolete or require significant redesigns (and cost) to lengthen them.
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It's a different game when a pro only needs to hit a driver (or even a 3 medal) and a PW on many par 4s and a driver and 6 iron to reach par 5s.

Webb was candid in his press conference on Sunday that he picks which tournaments he will play according to the length of the course and the likelihood of being competitive. Not every pro can afford to be that selective; but there are courses that eliminate a high percentage of the best players in the world due simply to length. Eventually that will ruin the game. From a spectator's perspective it is more enjoyable to watch players have to use most of the clubs in the bag and have to be creative in the shots they play. At least IMO
 
mebanedeac said:
It's a different game when a pro only needs to hit a driver (or even a 3 medal) and a PW on many par 4s and a driver and 6 iron to reach par 5s.

Webb was candid in his press conference on Sunday that he picks which tournaments he will play according to the length of the course and the likelihood of being competitive. Not every pro can afford to be that selective; but there are courses that eliminate a high percentage of the best players in the world due simply to length. Eventually that will ruin the game. From a spectator's perspective it is more enjoyable to watch players have to use most of the clubs in the bag and have to be creative in the shots they play. At least IMO
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I agree completely. This is one of the reasons I love Harbor Town. It’s one of the few courses today’s distance hasn’t changed. A true shot makers golf course.
 
The distance issue is way more than just PGA Tour play, too. Though some amazing courses are obsolete now for tournament play or have been totally ripped apart like Augusta.

Longer golf courses brings more maintenance, more water, longer rounds, less walking, and more green space needed in harder to access places away from large centers of people. That is a losing combo all the way around for a game that has pretty flat participation rates.
 
PaddyWF said:
The distance issue is way more than just PGA Tour play, too. Though some amazing courses are obsolete now for tournament play or have been totally ripped apart like Augusta.

Longer golf courses brings more maintenance, more water, longer rounds, less walking, and more green space needed in harder to access places away from large centers of people. That is a losing combo all the way around for a game that has pretty flat participation rates.
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Regardless of the length of the course, a good equalizer is the greens. ie. the greens at Augusta are still tough for players of any level, and they can be adjusted to be even tougher during tournaments.
 
The older equipment demanded more precision. That is mostly lost with modern drivers and low-spin balls. You almost never see a true foul ball. You can take a much faster swing, have a lower quality strike and still get a superior result.

How much better would Rory and Tiger be vs. the field if everyone played persimmons and balatas? Superior ball striking might be separated even further.
 
PaddyWF said:
The older equipment demanded more precision. That is mostly lost with modern drivers and low-spin balls. You almost never see a true foul ball. You can take a much faster swing, have a lower quality strike and still get a superior result.

How much better would Rory and Tiger be vs. the field if everyone played persimmons and balatas? Superior ball striking might be separated even further.
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The issues with balatas and persimmons are a little different. Today's golf balls both go farther and straighter and can still be spun back on greens. I used to work at a golf course as a kid, and a few of us ordered custom made drivers from some place in PA, and they were nice persimmons. I don't think my Taylor driver is any longer than that old persimmon when I hit it on the screws. The big difference is consistency and forgiveness. My foul balls now are way less foul.
 
It's a pipe dream to think anyone's rolling anything back of any substance. The real breakthroughs were decades ago - the pro v1 and the multi core ball that performs differently based on compression, titanium heads with max trampoline effect, and graphite shafts.

Put a Titleist 975-lfe with a v2 shaft in Brooks Koepka's hands tomorrow and guess what, there'd barely be a difference. 15+ years ago the average driver distance gap to now is under 10 yards, and for a couple years Kheune was longer or as long as anyone playing the tour today. It's all been faster, firmer courses, players hitting the gym, and slight tweaks (primarily in forgiveness) to equipment since then. You can't fix the forgiveness issue without forcing drivers back to sub 400cc's, which still wouldn't do much (have you actually looked at the wear spot on a pro's driver face?) - really you'd just be hurting amateurs.

Best they can do is try to stabilize where they are now equipment-wise. Want to knock 15 yards off a pro's driving average? Maybe don't burn out the fairways in every tournament for 80 yard roll-outs. Every tournament that gets rain sees averages drop to far more manageable numbers.
 
DCDeac said:
It's a pipe dream to think anyone's rolling anything back of any substance. The real breakthroughs were decades ago - the pro v1 and the multi core ball that performs differently based on compression, titanium heads with max trampoline effect, and graphite shafts.

Put a Titleist 975-lfe with a v2 shaft in Brooks Koepka's hands tomorrow and guess what, there'd barely be a difference. 15+ years ago the average driver distance gap to now is under 10 yards, and for a couple years Kheune was longer or as long as anyone playing the tour today. It's all been faster, firmer courses, players hitting the gym, and slight tweaks (primarily in forgiveness) to equipment since then. You can't fix the forgiveness issue without forcing drivers back to sub 400cc's, which still wouldn't do much (have you actually looked at the wear spot on a pro's driver face?) - really you'd just be hurting amateurs.

Best they can do is try to stabilize where they are now equipment-wise. Want to knock 15 yards off a pro's driving average? Maybe don't burn out the fairways in every tournament for 80 yard roll-outs. Every tournament that gets rain sees averages drop to far more manageable numbers.
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Add in launch monitors being used to optimize launch conditions and the best players are literally hitting it as far as possible.

I do think we are going to see an attempt at some sort of tournament ball/bifurcation in the near future. Maybe in a limited number of events. I think the pros would adapt quickly much like they do in Mexico City.
 
There already is bifurcation. The pros are not playing the same equipment amateurs do. And with minimal testing, we don't even know if its hot or not. Some guys got popped last year.
 
PaddyWF said:
There already is bifurcation. The pros are not playing the same equipment amateurs do. And with minimal testing, we don't even know if its hot or not. Some guys got popped last year.
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Fewer things could be more overrated than this. None of the clubs ever found to be non-conforming have been even 10 microseconds off, the famous Schauffele incident was less than 1 microsecond, or the equivalent of less than a foot of distance gain. Tour vans are routinely pulled and tested, so the idea would be that they hide "hot" heads and knowingly pass them on to players to be their gamers... Even if that was true the benefit would be so negligible there'd be no reason to risk it.

And the pro equipment thing as being different than amateur equipment short of early release access waived bye-bye long ago. If you have some extra cash there's a lively, readily accessible market for tour-issued equipment short of buying Tiger's custom blades. Again it's a difference that is at the very edge of performance. A few rpm's here, a yard there, another yard of fade or a softer sound and feel at impact...

To LK's point, there's no outlawing launch monitors. Force pros to use a ball that knocks off 5 yards of distance? Guys will just add a half inch of length to their driver, drop a few ounces off a shaft, etc. It's simply too late, the important gains were too long ago, and the sport isn't dominated by fat old guys anymore. To do any actual reversal would mean radical tactics, and I doubt they manage it. They could barely ban putter anchoring - years and years of effort to get Langer to move his putter handle half an inch. All these great rules changes and we end up with a weird, watered-down update to "modernize" the game that barely changed anything.
 
I agree the cat’s kind of out of the bag. I think the governing bodies should do two things: 1) do all they can to keep the status quo, if not roll things back a little bit, and 2) realize that they’re allowed to grow rough at tour events. Right now, there’s virtually no penalty for a missed fairway. Change that up, and you’ll see the tournaments transition from glorified long drive contests.
 
DCDeac said:
Fewer things could be more overrated than this. None of the clubs ever found to be non-conforming have been even 10 microseconds off, the famous Schauffele incident was less than 1 microsecond, or the equivalent of less than a foot of distance gain. Tour vans are routinely pulled and tested, so the idea would be that they hide "hot" heads and knowingly pass them on to players to be their gamers... Even if that was true the benefit would be so negligible there'd be no reason to risk it.

And the pro equipment thing as being different than amateur equipment short of early release access waived bye-bye long ago. If you have some extra cash there's a lively, readily accessible market for tour-issued equipment short of buying Tiger's custom blades. Again it's a difference that is at the very edge of performance. A few rpm's here, a yard there, another yard of fade or a softer sound and feel at impact...

To LK's point, there's no outlawing launch monitors. Force pros to use a ball that knocks off 5 yards of distance? Guys will just add a half inch of length to their driver, drop a few ounces off a shaft, etc. It's simply too late, the important gains were too long ago, and the sport isn't dominated by fat old guys anymore. To do any actual reversal would mean radical tactics, and I doubt they manage it. They could barely ban putter anchoring - years and years of effort to get Langer to move his putter handle half an inch. All these great rules changes and we end up with a weird, watered-down update to "modernize" the game that barely changed anything.
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I still chuckle about the groove rule a decade ago. That was supposed to mitigate bomb and gouge. 😂

I think the report did a good job of clearly identifying why distance is a problem in terms of the impact on sustainability for golf courses. I drives me nuts to see my club constantly taking on new projects to add 5p or 100 yards here and there when we only ever use the tips for a select few club events. And thats coming from someone who is likely in the top 1% in terms of distance of golfers.

I tend to think the solution should come more from the architecture/agronomy side at the pro level. Doglegs plus deep rough plus fast and firm conditions mitigate distance.

If the go after the ball, just make it spin more. The biggest change in tech results this last decade aren't that the ball goes far. It's that it curves so much less that they can go at it full speed without fear of bananas.

Whatever they do the pros would adapt in a week or two.
 
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