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Saudi World Golf Tour 2022/2023 Thread

Really, how much interest is there going to be from the US audience for golf tournaments happening halfway across the world in vastly different time zones? Americans are going to watch US golf in the US, with exceptions like Ryder Cup and the British Open.
 
Kevin Na has been a very consistent player with a lot of top 10s and top 25s. He won an event last season as well.
 
donaldross said:
So 20 of the top 100 in the world are playing in London at this event.

The PGA Tour is going to ban 20% of the best golfers from playing forever in their events? Not only will they lose in Court. They are also running a joke of a schedule if 1/5 the best golfers can’t even play.

Doesn’t seem they can keep them out of the World Golf Events, even if they do win excluding them from Hartford and Memphis and such other outposts (my beloved greensboro included)

So DJ gets 4 majors, 4 world golf events, more golf then he can stand on LIV and the Irish & Scottish Open. And he doesn’t have to play 5 hour rounds with 3 bankers at the Wells Fargo? What am I missing here?

Sayonara Quad Cities.

There’s a big illegal enterprise here that will be apologizing and rightfully so. And it’s not Phil Mickelson.
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Uh, who exactly do you think runs the World Golf Championship events? It's the same people who run your beloved Wyndham Championship, so of course the tour can control who plays in those events as well. Irish and Scottish Opens are run by the European Tour, what makes you think they will be welcoming DJ with open arms into those two events?

There is literally no one on that list of LIV players for the initial event I will ever miss watching play golf again if this is the direction they ultimately choose to go in.....
 
Yeah as I said, that list is terrible. I think I would have to give several of those guys 2 a side. LK would have to give about 4 a side and let them play up a tee box.

And it appears the European Tour is taking a similar stance to the PGA Tour. My guess is The Masters will end up following suit but will let DJ play as a past champion. Awkward situation.
 
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The real issue is the potential lawsuit. If the PGA tour loses, then almost any player who sees other players you would give 2 a side to making 10M+/year, and the top guys like DJ making 25M+/year, will probably decide to make the jump. And, as previously discussed, even if that litigation would take years, they have the funding to wait it out if they want to.
 
It's way early, but Deacs off to a strong start at the Memorial as Cam Young and Will Z are tied for the lead....
 
Les Grossman said:
The real issue is the potential lawsuit. If the PGA tour loses, then almost any player who sees other players you would give 2 a side to making 10M+/year, and the top guys like DJ making 25M+/year, will probably decide to make the jump. And, as previously discussed, even if that litigation would take years, they have the funding to wait it out if they want to.
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And there is a good chance the PGA tour loses. It is pretty fundamental to the independent contractor relationship that the employer can't dictate that the contractor not work for someone else.
 
Les Grossman said:
The real issue is the potential lawsuit. If the PGA tour loses, then almost any player who sees other players you would give 2 a side to making 10M+/year, and the top guys like DJ making 25M+/year, will probably decide to make the jump. And, as previously discussed, even if that litigation would take years, they have the funding to wait it out if they want to.
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They have the funding, but I doubt they would wait it out very long. Bigger fish to fry and the whole idea becomes stale. And in the meantime the PGA Tour players would be banned if they jump. The decision that the majors make will make a huge difference. If you can't play in the majors then the top 50 level players will by huge majority stay on Tour.

And realize, if the PGA Tour were to lose the suit, I would wager that the money that the LIV will have to fork over to entice players to jump will go down. Purses will still be bigger than the Tour but the up front money will tend to dry up. I realize the counterpoint to that is the Saudis have a bottomless pit of money, but I still believe some of the money will go away.
 
deac29 said:
And there is a good chance the PGA tour loses. It is pretty fundamental to the independent contractor relationship that the employer can't dictate that the contractor not work for someone else.
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They are in a way independent contactors to some degree. But they are MEMBERS of the PGA Tour and the PGA Tour CAN dictate who is a member of their tour. Again, the players can go play the LIV all they want. They just can't play the PGA Tour. That is NOT dictating that they can't play the LIV. It is dictating that they can't play the PGA Tour. And the PGA has tons of membership requirements.

I would think Monahan ran it by some pretty qualified attorneys.
 
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guitardeac said:
They have the funding, but I doubt they would wait it out very long. Bigger fish to fry and the whole idea becomes stale. And in the meantime the PGA Tour players would be banned if they jump. The decision that the majors make will make a huge difference. If you can't play in the majors then the top 50 level players will by huge majority stay on Tour.

And realize, if the PGA Tour were to lose the suit, I would wager that the money that the LIV will have to fork over to entice players to jump will go down. Purses will still be bigger than the Tour but the up front money will tend to dry up. I realize the counterpoint to that is the Saudis have a bottomless pit of money, but I still believe some of the money will go away.
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The Majors are key, but no way are they barred from playing in the Opens. At worst, they’d have to qualify. The Masters is the real question mark. The fact that DJ has won makes it complicated for them. Do they not invite a past champion? I don’t see that happening. Do they invite past champions, but not others? That seems like a real wishy washy/hypocritical position. I think since DJ is one of the guys, and he is a past champion, it does put them in a box to not prohibit anyone from playing. Having said that, they probably don’t have to worry about it that much anyway, since none of these guys will be able to hit a lot of the exemption requirements needed to be invited because they are on the LIV tour.

I don’t know the true financials of the PGA tour. If they are sitting on a pile of money like Mickelson seems to think, then they need to pony up and do it quick. That’s the only real way to nip this in the bud, imo.
 
FWIW, Charl Schwartzel in another past champ that has declared for the LIV tour. Would guess that the Masters would invite all past champs regardless of status. Sandy Lyle is non-competitive on any tour, and he gets an invite every year. Would seem dumb to not invite a past champ who might contend.
 
Yeah I mean everyone understands the Saudis have fuck you money, but it's still money and even to them $500M+ or whatever it's costing them to run a few golf tournaments won't continue if it's a total flop. $150M to DJ is a total panic move in the wake of the Phil meltdown combined with the complete rejection of the tour by actual stars like Rory and JT. Dustin Johnson is an actual star who just happens to be having an awful year, so he's a perfect target I guess - basically no chance to win the FedEx Cup. Remove him and the first tourney would be completely worthless to spectators - essentially Korn Ferry level.

Couple other things - multiple posts again saying things like the PGA Tour will lose a lawsuit because they're not allowed to dictate who plays where. That's not what they're doing. I don't understand why people keep arguing that. There are a million ways to tweek current policies to account for the LIV tour. It makes absolutely no difference that tour players are "independent contractors" as people keep saying. There have always been requirements for earning and maintaining a tour card that involved competing tours and tournaments. The goal is just to sue, delay, let the insane cash grab happen, and when the tour collapses everyone goes back to business as usual. Maybe someone out there involved thinks there's a long game here but I seriously doubt it. You think Greg Norman's going to working the LIV tour in 3 years?

Lastly, definitely seems like there's some misinformation out there about majors and tournament access. No, the Masters isn't run by the PGA Tour. Nor are the Opens or the PGA. But folks are seriously underestimating the influence of the PGA Tour. Phil for example - not allowed to play TPC regardless of what niceties were traded after the fact, and while Augusta went on the record to say they didn't "disinvite" Phil, they also said there needed to be a dialogue prior to any discussion about him playing. The USGA and the PGA Tour are extremely tightly coupled. Can the PGA Tour determine who plays in the US Open? No. Can they nullify ranking points from PGA events? Reduce exemptions to a bare minimum of past winners? Absolutely. The comment about "oh they'd just have to qualify" - even top 50 PGA guys do NOT want to have to go through qualifying for the US Open. And it's not like it'd be a shoe-in for them anyway. The ultimate open United States golf tournament is not going to side with Saudi Arabia over the PGA which drives a massive percentage of their revenue. If anything they'll work together to protect each other so we don't end up with The United States Open Liv Tour edition with a $250M first prize. As they should.
 
DC Deac, appreciate your take.

The following LIV players are currently exempt from qualifying and are in the 2022 US Open Field (which starts in two weeks):

- DJ
- Gooch
- Na
- Oostie
- Sergio

Do any of them play in Brookline on June 16?

One other thing about the LIV tournaments. The PGA, USGA, the Masters know how to put on golf tournaments. They have been doing it forever. LIV has never done this. Players are used to being coddled in every way. Yes, the LIV money is great, but wouldn't be surprised to see a lack of attention to the details that players are accustomed to and expect every week. Also, it's my understanding that these players have signed contracts with LIV. They are not independent contractors; they are now employees of the LIV Tour. You can't pick and choose the events to play in; those that signed up are expected to play in each LIV event (so far -- 8).
 
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Pilchard said:
FWIW, Charl Schwartzel in another past champ that has declared for the LIV tour. Would guess that the Masters would invite all past champs regardless of status. Sandy Lyle is non-competitive on any tour, and he gets an invite every year. Would seem dumb to not invite a past champ who might contend.
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I've thought all along that the PGA, USGA and R&A will follow what the PGA and DP tours do. Could be wrong about that. It's a shame Schwartzel bolted because he's been putting a bit better and has been on more leader boards the last year or so. He's always been a solid ball striker but has often had a balky putter. But you're probably correct about the Masters, and that will only affect 2 folks, DJ and Charl. Guys like Gooch and Oosthuizen will disappear from the top 50 quickly because they won't be earning world ranking points. Louis may have left the top 50 soon anyway because of the back issues. As for Lyle, he should be barred from Augusta for serving haggis at the champions dinner.
 
Pilchard said:
DC Deac, appreciate your take.

The following LIV players are currently exempt from qualifying and are in the 2022 US Open Field (which starts in two weeks):

- DJ
- Gooch
- Na
- Oostie
- Sergio

Do any of them play in Brookline on June 16?
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Great question. The US Open has an extremely broad Code of Conduct policy for any actions detrimental to the USGA or the game of golf. Doubtful they'd use it since it's mostly focused on stuff like cursing and slapping caddies, but they could. I'd guess the other piece would be the Publicity rights stipulation, which could definitely be in direct contradiction with the LIV tour's policies just based on their uniforms and other crap they're doing (plus how much they're paying DJ, for example). Who knows, maybe they own these guys for a year basically.

I guess the PGA could revoke all points awarded on the world golf ranking list in their tournaments which would cut out guys like Gooch and Na. Seems like something they would potentially do moving forward though, not retroactively (that actually could be a winning lawsuit I'd think).

Personally I think they all try to play. But that's probably naive. I hope Hennie Du Plessis wins the LIV tour event with 128 youtube viewers watching, all 5 are forced to opt out of the US Open by the Saudis, and then they balk on paying everyone.
 
guitardeac said:
Kevin Na has been a very consistent player with a lot of top 10s and top 25s. He won an event last season as well.
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No one will care if Kevin Na goes away. I doubt anyone could pick him out of a line up much less on a golf course.
 
guitardeac said:
Yeah as I said, that list is terrible. I think I would have to give several of those guys 2 a side. LK would have to give about 4 a side and let them play up a tee box.

And it appears the European Tour is taking a similar stance to the PGA Tour. My guess is The Masters will end up following suit but will let DJ play as a past champion. Awkward situation.
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Yeah the list sucks but we would get our asses handed to us 100 times over lol.

The Euro Tour should view this as a much more existential threat than the PGA Tour does.
 
DCDeac said:
Yeah I mean everyone understands the Saudis have fuck you money, but it's still money and even to them $500M+ or whatever it's costing them to run a few golf tournaments won't continue if it's a total flop. $150M to DJ is a total panic move in the wake of the Phil meltdown combined with the complete rejection of the tour by actual stars like Rory and JT. Dustin Johnson is an actual star who just happens to be having an awful year, so he's a perfect target I guess - basically no chance to win the FedEx Cup. Remove him and the first tourney would be completely worthless to spectators - essentially Korn Ferry level.

Couple other things - multiple posts again saying things like the PGA Tour will lose a lawsuit because they're not allowed to dictate who plays where. That's not what they're doing. I don't understand why people keep arguing that. There are a million ways to tweek current policies to account for the LIV tour. It makes absolutely no difference that tour players are "independent contractors" as people keep saying. There have always been requirements for earning and maintaining a tour card that involved competing tours and tournaments. The goal is just to sue, delay, let the insane cash grab happen, and when the tour collapses everyone goes back to business as usual. Maybe someone out there involved thinks there's a long game here but I seriously doubt it. You think Greg Norman's going to working the LIV tour in 3 years?

Lastly, definitely seems like there's some misinformation out there about majors and tournament access. No, the Masters isn't run by the PGA Tour. Nor are the Opens or the PGA. But folks are seriously underestimating the influence of the PGA Tour. Phil for example - not allowed to play TPC regardless of what niceties were traded after the fact, and while Augusta went on the record to say they didn't "disinvite" Phil, they also said there needed to be a dialogue prior to any discussion about him playing. The USGA and the PGA Tour are extremely tightly coupled. Can the PGA Tour determine who plays in the US Open? No. Can they nullify ranking points from PGA events? Reduce exemptions to a bare minimum of past winners? Absolutely. The comment about "oh they'd just have to qualify" - even top 50 PGA guys do NOT want to have to go through qualifying for the US Open. And it's not like it'd be a shoe-in for them anyway. The ultimate open United States golf tournament is not going to side with Saudi Arabia over the PGA which drives a massive percentage of their revenue. If anything they'll work together to protect each other so we don't end up with The United States Open Liv Tour edition with a $250M first prize. As they should.
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I think as far as the majors go, once you get past the past winner exemptions which I expect will still be honored the big issue for players will be their inability to get enough OWGR points to be exempt into the events, which makes it essentially a defacto ban because as you said these guys really don't want to open qualify and many of them will fail if they try to do so.

From where I sit, the PGA Tour holds all the cards not because of any legal issue, but because they essentially are the place where the vast vast majority of OWGR points are allocated. Limiting access via the OWGR is already codified and could simply be expanded.
 
DCDeac said:
Great question. The US Open has an extremely broad Code of Conduct policy for any actions detrimental to the USGA or the game of golf. Doubtful they'd use it since it's mostly focused on stuff like cursing and slapping caddies, but they could. I'd guess the other piece would be the Publicity rights stipulation, which could definitely be in direct contradiction with the LIV tour's policies just based on their uniforms and other crap they're doing (plus how much they're paying DJ, for example). Who knows, maybe they own these guys for a year basically.

I guess the PGA could revoke all points awarded on the world golf ranking list in their tournaments which would cut out guys like Gooch and Na. Seems like something they would potentially do moving forward though, not retroactively (that actually could be a winning lawsuit I'd think).

Personally I think they all try to play. But that's probably naive. I hope Hennie Du Plessis wins the LIV tour event with 128 youtube viewers watching, all 5 are forced to opt out of the US Open by the Saudis, and then they balk on paying everyone.
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I would expect the Saudi's to force exempt players to utilize those exemptions to force any sort of issue to the forefront. Their presence in the news as a disruptor is pretty much the only positive they have going for them.
 
I wonder how different things would be right now had Phil not ran his mouth. That's really something to think about. Phil may have completely cooked this tour. The one thing he did for sure was put about $75 million more in DJ's pockets . That's just a guess but LIV had to find someone else to be the big face of it without Phil.
 
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