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Thread: Ongoing Dem Debacle Thread: Ok, hear me out. Picture this...A Horseshoe...

  1. #1001
    If i donít believe in giving thousands of dollars to a democratic campaign, then what else do I have to hold a party accountable to my values than my vote. If i will constantly compromise my values to a candidate that constantly sells out the people that are most marginalized, how am i protecting them?

  2. #1002
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    You donít have to be a Democrat. Sure. You can build DSA from scratch. Sure. But donít think youíre actually addressing the real problems by joining the less than 1 percent voting for some random candidate in a real election instead of voting for a candidate with a chance to win.

  3. #1003
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDeac View Post
    You donít have to be a Democrat. Sure. You can build DSA from scratch. Sure. But donít think youíre actually addressing the real problems by joining the less than 1 percent voting for some random candidate in a real election instead of voting for a candidate with a chance to win.
    What bullshit. Donít pretend you are actually addressing the real problems by electing a Clinton. I wouldnít spend the time I do away from my family if i didnít think doing DSA work materially improved the lives of people in my community. You apparently donít know shit about that work, otherwise you wouldnít shit all over it.

  4. #1004
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    What problems are you addressing by electing Trump?

  5. #1005
    Here I am organizing against building new jails, and ending cash bail, and protesting the privatization of sidewalks in my community to protect the interests of openly racist business owners, and campaigning for zero cost at entry single payer healthcare, and putting my life at risk by demonstrating against neo-nazis in a country where our police protect white supremacists rather than those protesting against white supremacy. And you can sit over there and vote for a party that is opposition to my interests, and then be rude enough to tell me that Iím not helping address peopleís real problems. Iím the enemy of progressivism?

  6. #1006
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDeac View Post
    What problems are you addressing by electing Trump?
    Leftists did not elect Trump.

  7. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHBDemon View Post
    Leftists did not elect Trump.
    They did if they didnít vote for Hillary.

    Stop being all high and mighty like you and your little club are the only ones who care about these issues. Plenty of Democrats do and are working to address them.

  8. #1008
    Iím not trying to be all high and mighty. Iím saying your politics are bullshit if Iím the enemy. And Iím saying donít tell me that Iím not helping to address real problems. Why do hold to such a terrible take rather than just thinking the Democratic Party should earn my vote?

  9. #1009
    I gotta go chill and spend time with my family. Later.

  10. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHBDemon View Post
    Iím not trying to be all high and mighty. Iím saying your politics are bullshit if Iím the enemy. And Iím saying donít tell me that Iím not helping to address real problems. Why do hold to such a terrible take rather than just thinking the Democratic Party should earn my vote?
    Youíre not my enemy but you are part of the problem. Instead of facing these issues and running candidates as Democrats where they could possibly win, youíre dooming them to failure and making sure your issues stay fringe issues.

  11. #1011
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHBDemon View Post
    Leftists did not elect Trump.
    Those who voted for Jill Stein, encouraged people to vote for Jill Stein, actively campaigned against Hillary or didn't vote helped elect Trump.

    Hillary was a terrible candidate, but what is infinitely worse is what Trump, Pruitt, Sessions, Mulvaney, et al, are doing to our country. It will take years to turn around the evil they have done.

    We had a bad binary choice. The actions of the far left absolutely helped elect Trump.

  12. #1012
    Quote Originally Posted by MHBDemon View Post
    You are not able to argue my point more substantively than this? Some democracy.
    America is not a democracy

  13. #1013
    Quote Originally Posted by AsesinoDeTortugas View Post
    America is not a democracy
    Then I'm not going to be even more anti-democratic to tell someone that they HAVE to vote for a democrat.

  14. #1014
    I disagree with you
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHBDemon View Post
    Leftists did not elect Trump.
    If you voted for someone other than HC in the general youíre absolutely culpable. Enjoy your moral high ground, though.

  15. #1015
    Who is the one on the moral high ground?

  16. #1016
    Quote Originally Posted by RJKarl View Post
    Those who voted for Jill Stein, encouraged people to vote for Jill Stein, actively campaigned against Hillary or didn't vote helped elect Trump.

    Hillary was a terrible candidate...

    We had a bad binary choice. The actions of the far left absolutely helped elect Trump.
    So every conservative voted for Trump? None sat it out or voted for Johnson or wrote someone in?

    To your point, I'd say those who had the most impact regarding what you're talking about were feeling the Bern. I agree many didn't vote or went with Stein, but I don't believe any number of consequence voted for Trump. Truth is that all of the discussion about a disorganized Republican party that lacked a message, money, ground game, identity, unity, etc., were only true in part regarding Republicans. The Democratic party actually ended up with a monopoly there.

    You say HRC was a terrible candidate, which is true, but she was much more than that. Name another candidate that personally funded the DNC or the RNC and had the scales thumbed in their favor to get a nomination. Name another candidate from either party that you can prove got a debate question in advance. Name another candidate that barked like a dog and, during an interview, wondered why that candidate wasn't up by 50 points. I could go on about emails, not speaking in certain states and other scandals but I won't, I'll just say that I've never seen a politician in my life that was as entitled as she felt she was.

    Truth is that leftists did not elect Trump, Hillary did. Hillary and "leftists" are not the same. Many already decided they could not vote for her years ago. For example, the way that she, Carville & Co demonized women involved with Bill was reprehensible, yet her slogan was "I'm with her." Ironic sexism bedamned, she went with it anyway because she had little else of substance to run on.

    Just want clarification. Are Bernie supporters the "far left" you're talking about?

  17. #1017
    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus Deacus View Post
    You say HRC was a terrible candidate, which is true, but she was much more than that. Name another candidate that personally funded the DNC or the RNC and had the scales thumbed in their favor to get a nomination. Name another candidate from either party that you can prove got a debate question in advance. Name another candidate that barked like a dog and, during an interview, wondered why that candidate wasn't up by 50 points. I could go on about emails, not speaking in certain states and other scandals but I won't, I'll just say that I've never seen a politician in my life that was as entitled as she felt she was.
    Well, for starters, Ronald Reagan in 1980 didn't get just a single question in advance, but Jimmy Carter's entire debate prep book, thanks to someone stealing a copy and giving it to the Reagan campaign. It's believed that conservative columnist George Will did it, but he offered a semi-denial. Anyone who thinks that Hillary was the first candidate to try to gain an unfair advantage in a battle for the nomination hasn't read much political history, as it happens all the time, in both parties. George W. Bush swamped John McCain with money, and in the 2000 South Carolina primary accused McCain - a genuine Vietnam War hero - of being a crazed "Manchurian candidate" because of his time spent in North Vietnamese prisons (Bush avoided Vietnam service), and spread the lie that McCain had fathered an illegitimate Asian child. And that's not to mention the many nominations won through crooked, or at least ethically dubious, back-room deals (Warren Harding in 1920, Taft in 1912, Willkie in 1940, and so on).

    Thomas E. Dewey ran the most entitled campaign in history in 1948. Thanks to his lead in all the polls, and every pol and pundit telling him that he would win easily if he didn't stir up controversy, he refused to mention Truman by name, refused to respond to most of Truman's attacks, and for all intents and purposes ran like a man who was already elected. I fully agree that Hillary was a terrible campaigner in 2016 (and always had been, as her loss to Obama in 2008 proved), but I continue to fail to see why she is uniquely evil or malicious, especially compared to other candidates and pols throughout our history. I think conservatives simply built her up as the ultimate bogeyman (or woman) beginning with Bill's first victory in 1992, and have added to it ever since. And to continue to believe that she is somehow uniquely corrupt or unethical, especially given that her opponent was Donald Freaking Trump, requires some amazing logic.
    Last edited by Highland Deac; 04-28-2018 at 07:34 PM.

  18. #1018

    Ongoing Dem Debacle Thread: A New Hope

    Damn, yíall. Clinton didnít win because Clinton and the party didnít prioritize voter turnout, especially in battleground states.

    Get out of here with those lazy arguments that Jill Stein voters swung the election.

    We donít live in a monarchy. Nobody is entitled to the presidency. Thatís why you have to run for it.

    ETA: I disliked Clinton and voted/canvassed for her anyway, so maybe yíall will actually engage with the critique/argument if I make it?
    We're going to be good again.

  19. #1019
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus Deacus View Post
    So every conservative voted for Trump? None sat it out or voted for Johnson or wrote someone in?

    To your point, I'd say those who had the most impact regarding what you're talking about were feeling the Bern. I agree many didn't vote or went with Stein, but I don't believe any number of consequence voted for Trump. Truth is that all of the discussion about a disorganized Republican party that lacked a message, money, ground game, identity, unity, etc., were only true in part regarding Republicans. The Democratic party actually ended up with a monopoly there.

    You say HRC was a terrible candidate, which is true, but she was much more than that. Name another candidate that personally funded the DNC or the RNC and had the scales thumbed in their favor to get a nomination. Name another candidate from either party that you can prove got a debate question in advance. Name another candidate that barked like a dog and, during an interview, wondered why that candidate wasn't up by 50 points. I could go on about emails, not speaking in certain states and other scandals but I won't, I'll just say that I've never seen a politician in my life that was as entitled as she felt she was.

    Truth is that leftists did not elect Trump, Hillary did. Hillary and "leftists" are not the same. Many already decided they could not vote for her years ago. For example, the way that she, Carville & Co demonized women involved with Bill was reprehensible, yet her slogan was "I'm with her." Ironic sexism bedamned, she went with it anyway because she had little else of substance to run on.

    Just want clarification. Are Bernie supporters the "far left" you're talking about?
    I never said it was only leftists, but then you'd have to be accurate in your rant.

  20. #1020
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    There are a lot of reasons Hillary lost. It was close. Just like a close basketball game could have come down to free throws, a bad call, poor shooting, poor defense, talent, any number of factors.

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