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John Collins and the draft

Pilchard said:
Keep in mind that Glen Rice Jr. (not the dad) was once MVP of the NBA Summer League. Definitely a time to be optimistic, but there are an endless amount of players that looked legit in the Summer League that had zero impact in the NBA.
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How many players who didn't look legit in Summer League had an impact in the NBA? It's not like Complacent listed his All-Star projections. He just listed players who look like they could stick around.
 
RChildress107 said:
Right, which means if you want to compete you better have one of them. They are easier to find and you aren't winning a title with a PG as your best player, but you still need one.

A Spurs fan should know this.
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And as I pointed out, almost every team has one or at least a high potential young guy.
 
PhDeac said:
And as I pointed out, almost every team has one or at least a high potential young guy.
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The Hawks don't, as I pointed out.

If you look at the 20 guys I listed, I don't think you can win a championship with the guys at the bottom of that list. Maybe if you have Lebron.

At a minimum you need someone like Teague or Kemba. And even then he better be your third or fourth best player.

What was the last non-Lebron team to make the finals without a top 15 PG?
 
RChildress107 said:
The Hawks don't, as I pointed out.

If you look at the 20 guys I listed, I don't think you can win a championship with the guys at the bottom of that list. Maybe if you have Lebron.

At a minimum you need someone like Teague or Kemba. And even then he better be your third or fourth best player.

What was the last non-Lebron team to make the finals without a top 15 PG?
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And that's your opinion. Like I said, others have him in the mid-to-late teens, right around the edge of the Top 15.

It's nice to talk championships, but there are only four teams even close to winning a championship in the next few years.

Russ, Curry, and Parker are the only PGs to make it recently without Lebron. Go back a little further and you've got old Fisher, old Kidd, Rondo, and Jameer Nelson. Not sure that helps your point.
 
What a waste of time argument.

Schroeder is a place holder until Collins is ready to take the reigns in a year or two.
 
PhDeac said:
And that's your opinion. Like I said, others have him in the mid-to-late teens, right around the edge of the Top 15.

It's nice to talk championships, but there are only four teams even close to winning a championship in the next few years.

Russ, Curry, and Parker are the only PGs to make it recently without Lebron. Go back a little further and you've got old Fisher, old Kidd, Rondo, and Jameer Nelson. Not sure that helps your point.
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Who on the list I posted earlier would you replace with Schroeder?
 
PhDeac said:
And that's your opinion. Like I said, others have him in the mid-to-late teens, right around the edge of the Top 15.

It's nice to talk championships, but there are only four teams even close to winning a championship in the next few years.

Russ, Curry, and Parker are the only PGs to make it recently without Lebron. Go back a little further and you've got old Fisher, old Kidd, Rondo, and Jameer Nelson. Not sure that helps your point.
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2011 Kidd, 2010 Rondo, and 2009 Nelson were all top 15 PGs.
 
RChildress107 said:
Who on the list I posted earlier would you replace with Schroeder?
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Dude, I'm not arguing he's a Top 15 PG. I'm saying there's so much depth at PG that more than 15 teams have a quality PG. So that giving up on a guy in the high 20s to chase a Top 15 guy is a poor strategy. Better to invest in getting a top wing.

Oh and the PG position was much weaker in that era.
 
Nelson didn't even play in the playoffs that year until the finals. And he sucked then (after coming back from missing like last 40 games of reg season). Raefer Alston was PG throughout the playoffs.
 
Shroeder is serviceable and should get the ball to Collins but not as good as people think. Top 15 PG in a 32 (?) team league describes serviceable but not great
 
PhDeac said:
Dude, I'm not arguing he's a Top 15 PG. I'm saying there's so much depth at PG that more than 15 teams have a quality PG. So that giving up on a guy in the high 20s to chase a Top 15 guy is a poor strategy. Better to invest in getting a top wing.

Oh and the PG position was much weaker in that era.
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All things being equal, if you roll into a playoff series with Schroeder and I roll in with Teague my team is winning the series in 5 by an average of 5 ppg. If I roll in with Kyrie or Lowry it's over in 4-5 games by 8ppg. If I have a top 5 PG then it's a sweep by 15 ppg.

I'm not sure Schroeder will even be a top 30 PG halfway through the season once we know what the rookies look like. I can't think of anyone off the top of my head other than the Knicks and the Pacers and maybe Orlando that have a bleaker outlook at the PG position than the Hawks.

And at least the Knicks have that French kid.
 
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deaconson said:
That was just a devious plot to trick him into signing an extension. They can then play him where they want. Or something.
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The best part of this joke is that it could end if he could just be #defeated, but instead it will live forever.
 
I really think the Hawks are going to be a surprise borderline .500 team next year with Schroeder, Collins, and Prince leading the way. I also think ex-Spur Marco Bellineli will make buckets off the bench.

PG - Schroeder, Delaney
SG - Baze, Bellineli, Dorsey
SF - Prince, Baze, Bembry
PF - Collins, Illysova, Muscala
C- Dedmon, Plumlee, Stone

Not awful
 
A 40-42 team in this godawful Eastern Conference. That's about the worst possible place to be. But yeah, feels like a 30-win team, at best.
 
I feel like 25-30 wins is generous, honestly. So much of that team was carried by Millsap, and as good as I think Collins will be, he ain't Millsap yet.

I do sorta agree with Ph on Schroder, though. Not the "top 15 PG" nonsense, but that it's a little early to pull the plug on him or start talking about him hitting his ceiling. He was a 22 year old first time starter last year and averaged 18 and 6 with solid percentages. Best as I can tell, he needs to stop turning the ball over and start playing defense (the times I've watched him certainly support the latter point), but he's not terrible or anything. Looks like he got better in that department as the season went on, which is encouraging.
 
Obviously, I disagree. Normally, finishing 40-42 is a terrible place to be in (in the new NBA world order), but if your top 3 players are 23, 19, and 21, that's a good place to be IMO. It is where Golden State was 4 or 5 years ago.

IMO, every championship team has to get lucky in the draft or have Lebron James. You can sign free agents or James, but I feel like the Boston Celtics were the last championship team that essentially did it with free agents not named James. You could argue that Rondo was a steal at where he was drafted though.

The Heat and Cleveland got James. And Cleveland had the luxury of being awful for a few years and getting Kyrie and being in position to draft Wiggins and trade him for Love.

The Spurs got lucky getting Kawhi mid 1st round and Parker and Manu in the late 1st and 2nd rounds. The Warriors got lucky getting Green in the 2nd round. If he wasn't fat at the time and the same asshole then he is now, he'd have been drafted in the top 15 (still too low).

So back to the Hawks. They have gotten great value where Schroeder was picked and it seems Prince and Collins the same. Let's see what they can do. But I bet you Atl is closer to 40 wins than they are to 25. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they are 5 or 6 games over .500 after 20/25 games and the wheels come off mid-season after teams have figured out how to stop the three kids and they don't adjust.
 
jaybone said:
Obviously, I disagree. Normally, finishing 40-42 is a terrible place to be in (in the new NBA world order), but if your top 3 players are 23, 19, and 21, that's a good place to be IMO. It is where Golden State was 4 or 5 years ago.
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Golden State was never in that position.
 
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