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Updates to the Joel?

To be fair, I doubt there’s anyone on the board who has seen more venues than DR. Probably aren’t too many people alive. If he’d spend that travel money on capital donations, we might already have found our keys by now though.
 
LilburnDeac said:
If you haven't attended at least 10 games when Wake was playing in the old WS Coliseum and had to travel to at least 5 games when we had to play the ACC games in GSO, then your opinion on the LJVM doesn't matter.

It's all about history.
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Our basketball team in 2040 should not be about 1989. Leaving aside the past, our generation is tasked with what the ideal venue is.
 
Liquid Karma said:
Double deckers. Party up top.
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None of these strategies will ever work.

Our fan base is the same as everyone elses and always will be:

1) Old people will sit for most of the game.

2) Students will come if they aren't crapped on and shoved behind the basket. You will always have 500 students who are excited at Wake and 4K who aren't.

It's not about convincing people to change. People are people. It's about designing a building that uses people, and their natural tendency, best. That's what makes the Cameron design so timeless and why it has been copied so well at Florida, Michigan State, etc.

8-9 rows of student risers between the free throw lines. A cut -- so the top donors -- can sit just above them (they all love those seats). The rest of the students who aren't hungry enough to get in there shoved elsewhere in the 7500 range, tight wall build. No cavernous overhangs designed for circuses and tractor pulls.

Will this mean we go to the Final 4 every year? Of course not. Can we go to the final 4 once or twice without it. Of course. UNLV had a brief run too with a cheating, likable gun slinger. We can as well and we should be trying that too! But if we as alums want to give our team the best chance to win over the long haul, we need the proper college basketball venue for our size base. Winston-Salem blows and our alums aren't staying there. Just like Durham blows. You have to account for that recognizing the size of your normal crowd for a 9pm weeknight bubble game against Clemson. You don't build your Church for Easter Sunday.
 
cameron is a dump that people convince themselves is charming. It’s a piece of shit building. I’ve been there for a game too so I can say that.

What makes cameron a great atmosphere is that the court is filled with pro players every year. Giving credit for the success to bunch of sycophants sitting on the sideline is nonsense. Most venues are pretty exciting when your team is winning at that clip.

I just don’t trust the wake students to show up consistently throughout a season. I’d love to be wrong. I’d rather those seats have wine and cheese folks while generating the revenue to pay good coaches. A lot is often made of our disadvantages as a small student body, but we also have disadvantages with our donor pool. Bob and Ben aren’t going to be writing operation checks forever. No reason to hamstring our ability to fund the payroll needed to win.
 
I wonder how much of a difference it makes to be able to sell 5k tickets to opposing fans?
 
Deacfreak07 said:
cameron is a dump that people convince themselves is charming. It’s a piece of shit building. I’ve been there for a game too so I can say that.

What makes cameron a great atmosphere is that the court is filled with pro players every year. Giving credit for the success to bunch of sycophants sitting on the sideline is nonsense. Most venues are pretty exciting when your team is winning at that clip.

I just don’t trust the wake students to show up consistently throughout a season. I’d love to be wrong. I’d rather those seats have wine and cheese folks while generating the revenue to pay good coaches. A lot is often made of our disadvantages as a small student body, but we also have disadvantages with our donor pool. Bob and Ben aren’t going to be writing operation checks forever. No reason to hamstring our ability to fund the payroll needed to win.
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I just could not disagree with this any more. This view is the epitome of what I disagree with. I'm convinced Wake will continue sucking over the long haul, and our donations will continue to lag way behind as a result, as long as this view has a foothold in the Wake community. And it has a strong foothold. How many more decades must we suck to try the Duke approach? Apparently 6 was not enough.
 
donaldross said:
I just could not disagree with this any more. This view is the epitome of what I disagree with. I'm convinced Wake will continue sucking over the long haul, and our donations will continue to lag way behind as a result, as long as this view has a foothold in the Wake community. And it has a strong foothold. How many more decades must we suck to try the Duke approach? Apparently 6 was not enough.
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What is the duke approach? Hire the greatest coach of all time, invest very little money into your arena, ?????, profit?
 
Disagree with DF7. Think the location of the student section is more important than expecting a large amount of students to show up. Just 100 students courtside changes the entire game experience, even if you can’t count on 500+ students attending every game. The best teams in the country have inconsistent student attendance because college students have much busier social lives than the adult fans that live locally. Also from my experience as a crazy student fan and as a local fan, students are much more likely to attend games with the intent of affecting the game by being loud and obnoxious, so it doesn’t make sense to give them random shitty seats.
 
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I agree with DR about Cameron, thinking that it sucks is crazy to me. I've been to a few games there and every time it is an awesome experience, and one that I come out of saying, damn I wish we had that at Wake. Yes the pro players help the atmosphere, but do you think if those same pro players, at ages 14-18 came to a stadium in durham that held 14,500 ppl and had an average of even 10-11k are going to commit in mass to Duke the same way they do now?

The atmosphere and coliseum matters in recruiting. If I was a top 10 player deciding between Duke and Wake and had no ties to either, but went to 3 games in WS and 3 games in Cameron there is almost 0 chance I'd even consider going to wake. Now it's not the only thing that matters, coach matters big time, but for the most part coaches come and go, a stadium needs to be an advantage that is constant.
 
Deacfreak07 said:
What is the duke approach? Hire the greatest coach of all time, invest very little money into your arena, ?????, profit?
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Duke, with Cameron, did more in the 2 decades before K then we have in 100 years. Yes, build small, give student preferred seating and hire 30 year old coaches. If they don’t work, hire another one.
 
donaldross said:
If you have attended less than 10 home games in the last decade, please reveal that so no one takes you seriously.
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I have been to three since [Redacted] took over. Hard to believe. Saw the Stetson loss, the loss to Duke when we had JC, and the most recent UNC win. I was a regular season ticket holder for 5-7 years and then just stopped going.
 
donaldross said:
UNLV had a brief run too with a cheating, likable gun slinger. We can as well and we should be trying that too!
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come for the condescension against the alums, stay for the unwarranted attacks on our coach!
 
donaldross said:
Duke, with Cameron, did more in the 2 decades before K then we have in 100 years. Yes, build small, give student preferred seating and hire 30 year old coaches. If they don’t work, hire another one.
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cameron was 40 when k was hired. The Joel is 30 now.

I have no issue with a smaller arena. I just don't think we need to put one that's a dump and probably not even up to fire code as the example to follow. Plenty of other small arenas around the country that are great.

The 30 year old coach thing is a weird thing to fixate on, but I get that it makes you feel better about your attachment to Wes Miller. Something tells me that if duke hired k in 1990 and the rest of his career was the same, that they would probably be feeling ok about that.
 
thatguy2016 said:
come for the condescension against the alums, stay for the unwarranted attacks on our coach!
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It’s working great for his mentor at Auburn. I frankly love it. This is the pay JUCO players era. Own it. It’s ok!
 
deacfan123 said:
I agree with DR about Cameron, thinking that it sucks is crazy to me. I've been to a few games there and every time it is an awesome experience, and one that I come out of saying, damn I wish we had that at Wake. Yes the pro players help the atmosphere, but do you think if those same pro players, at ages 14-18 came to a stadium in durham that held 14,500 ppl and had an average of even 10-11k are going to commit in mass to Duke the same way they do now?

The atmosphere and coliseum matters in recruiting. If I was a top 10 player deciding between Duke and Wake and had no ties to either, but went to 3 games in WS and 3 games in Cameron there is almost 0 chance I'd even consider going to wake. Now it's not the only thing that matters, coach matters big time, but for the most part coaches come and go, a stadium needs to be an advantage that is constant.
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Maybe so. duke was losing blue chippers to unc and uk for years until this latter part of k's tenure. Nothing changed with cameron to get the Kyrie's and Zion's of the world at duke...I wonder what it could be?
 
dr's caught feelings about Forbes over Wes Miller are just sad at this point however funny it was at the beginning.

It's ok to be happy about success for your alma mater.
 
Deacfreak07 said:
dr's caught feelings about Forbes over Wes Miller are just sad at this point however funny it was at the beginning.

It's ok to be happy about success for your alma mater.
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I love Forbes. He’s getting us better. I bet we get in this year, reach the Sweet 16 next and he’s gone. That’s a helluva an improvement. That was way better than where we were. And if I’m wrong and it’s sustainable for a decade, I’ll be the first to admit it!
 
Deacfreak07 said:
Maybe so. duke was losing blue chippers to unc and uk for years until this latter part of k's tenure. Nothing changed with cameron to get the Kyrie's and Zion's of the world at duke...I wonder what it could be?
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I mean this is just an insane post. It’s like you woke up for the first time in 2005.
 
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