• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Updates to the Joel?

I wouldn't have a problem with DR's argument if he just wouldn't exaggerate the impact the shortcomings of our arena has on the success, or lack thereof, of the program. Would an awesome new arena help the program - of course. Is the Joel one of the main reasons our basketball program has sucked for the last decade - absolutely not. Could we have a super successful program while playing in the Joel - absolutely.
 
I'd enjoy a statement or plan from the AD either way. I suppose it's clear that we're renovating. But a press conference with pictures etc could add to the momentum of a good season. And boy howdy, announcing a new stadium with renderings would be
 
scooter84 said:
I wouldn't have a problem with DR's argument if he just wouldn't exaggerate the impact the shortcomings of our arena has on the success, or lack thereof, of the program. Would an awesome new arena help the program - of course. Is the Joel one of the main reasons our basketball program has sucked for the last decade - absolutely not. Could we have a super successful program while playing in the Joel - absolutely.
Click to expand...

Thank you. /endthread
 
scooter84 said:
I wouldn't have a problem with DR's argument if he just wouldn't exaggerate the impact the shortcomings of our arena has on the success, or lack thereof, of the program. Would an awesome new arena help the program - of course. Is the Joel one of the main reasons our basketball program has sucked for the last decade - absolutely not. Could we have a super successful program while playing in the Joel - absolutely.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure his argument does back farther than the last decade, to the last 3+ decades to explain why we haven't ever really competed for a Championship. And to the extent that our building indicates our commitment to winning, I tend to agree with him. Despite the relative success we had for 2 decades under Odom/Skip/Dino (one of the top 25 programs in the nation for sure), the school has never prioritized basketball in the same way some of our tobacco road counterparts have. Looking back over his entire body of work, Wellman failed our men's bball program miserably...the last decade of utter awfulness was just the result of decades of failure and mismanagement coming to it's natural fruition.

Now, do I think a better building would have won us a Championship? Eh...hard to say. Do I think a better building, or even a better Joel, would have been the result of doing all the right things to try to win a Championship? Yes, absolutely.

I disagree that it HAS to be a new building. But if it's a revamp of the Joel, it has to be a massive revamp such that it's not recognizable from the inside. We need less seats, steeper rows, less space to fill, more people closer to the action...a real dedicated basketball venue rather than a multi purpose stadium. It has to scream WFU from the time you pull into the parking lot. If the Joel can't be turned into that for less $$ than building new, then let's build new. Regardless, the time is quickly approaching now to get it done if we really do intend to build a program that contends for Championships.
 
I definitely want upgraded facilities. But with TD21 and CP3, we had two separate windows where we could have won a championship and should have made at least one Final Four. And the Joel was rocking back then. Those failures had nothing to do with facilities.
 
scooter84 said:
I wouldn't have a problem with DR's argument if he just wouldn't exaggerate the impact the shortcomings of our arena has on the success, or lack thereof, of the program. Would an awesome new arena help the program - of course. Is the Joel one of the main reasons our basketball program has sucked for the last decade - absolutely not. Could we have a super successful program while playing in the Joel - absolutely.
Click to expand...

So classic that you would make lifelong business decisions based on the tone of my take. That’s classic Wake Forest right there.

And of course, we can win here and there in any building. Bad investments cash all the time. Just not as often as good investments.

Sitting here in the Leon County Civic Center it always reminds me so much of all the missteps we made. And frankly the 30 year window shows nearly identical results. 2 ACC championships 4 sweet 16s and an Elite 8. We are Florida State. And you all are quite satisfied with that.
 
DeacDaddy said:
I definitely want upgraded facilities. But with TD21 and CP3, we had two separate windows where we could have won a championship and should have made at least one Final Four. And the Joel was rocking back then. Those failures had nothing to do with facilities.
Click to expand...

You could very easily make the argument that we made those runs in spite of our facilities and commitment rather than using that as evidence that they are "good enough"...only two runs in 30 years kinda drives that home. Having a rocking stadium when the team is really good isn't proof of anything other than fans show up to see a good team play. What if better facilities and commitment meant we had made 4 more runs over that time? 10 more?
 
For everyone who hates the Joel the solution is easy. Get out your checkbook and write a check. Or transfer some funds from your account. Chip in 200 million and they will build a new building and they will put your name on it.
 
89DeaconMike said:
For everyone who hates the Joel the solution is easy. Get out your checkbook and write a check. Or transfer some funds from your account. Chip in 200 million and they will build a new building and they will put your name on it.
Click to expand...

It is a fair point. And I’m working on it.

And to your point giving 1 or 5mil won’t do it. They will just screw it up again.
 
RacerDeac said:
You could very easily make the argument that we made those runs in spite of our facilities and commitment rather than using that as evidence that they are "good enough"...only two runs in 30 years kinda drives that home. Having a rocking stadium when the team is really good isn't proof of anything other than fans show up to see a good team play. What if better facilities and commitment meant we had made 4 more runs over that time? 10 more?
Click to expand...

Again, I think we need better facilities. I just think that of all the reasons we haven’t manifested as the program of which we’re capable, the Joel is just one factor and for me it’s pretty far down the list. And my evidence is that we had no problem surging toward the sun in a crazy excited Joel behind two superstars, and go ahead and count the era of Dino’s #1 ranking in that list too, and none of that seemed to me to be impeded by the Joel.

We’ve shown that we can attract and recruit the best in the nation and we just haven’t gotten it done with them.
 
I mean I assume there are some graduates from Wake Forest on this board. Maybe some from the Business School like me. Wake Forest bought a relatively modern basketball arena for 8 million dollars. That's a pretty smart business decision. I've been to Cameron Indoor Stadium. Compared to the Joel it's a dump. It wouldn't even pass modern day fire codes. Can we update the Joel sure. But it's not like we have the worst facilities in Power 5.
 
Last edited:
donaldross said:
It is a fair point. And I’m working on it.

And to your point giving 1 or 5mil won’t do it. They will just screw it up again.
Click to expand...

Do it Don! The Donald Ross Dome. Statue of you out front. Make it happen!
 
89DeaconMike said:
I mean I assume there are some graduates from Wake Forest on this board. Maybe some from the Business School like me. Wake Forest bought a relatively modern basketball arena for 8 million dollars. That's a pretty smart business decision. I've been to Cameron Indoor Stadium. Compared to the Joel it's a dump. It wouldn't even pass modern day fire codes. Can we update the Joel sure. But it's not like we have the worst facilities in Power 5.
Click to expand...

Who exactly was the other potential buyer who we outbid? We shouldn’t have paid $1 for an annual 400k loser. And no one else would.
 
89DeaconMike said:
For everyone who hates the Joel the solution is easy. Get out your checkbook and write a check. Or transfer some funds from your account. Chip in 200 million and they will build a new building and they will put your name on it.
Click to expand...

Lol...the ole "you can't have an opinion unless you have $200M to spend" message board argument.
 
donaldross said:
Who exactly was the other potential buyer who we outbid? We shouldn’t have paid $1 for an annual 400k loser. And no one else would.
Click to expand...

We paid $8 million for the arena and 33 acres. That’s $242,000 per acre, which doesn’t sound like a bad deal.

Also, the City kept the naming rights which would like another Wellman fuckup.
 
RacerDeac said:
Lol...the ole "you can't have an opinion unless you have $200M to spend" message board argument.
Click to expand...

I mean he’s right about one thing: you can’t change it without it. Lord knows I’ve tried for 2+ decades now. Wake Forest alums have proven they ain’t buying this argument or, for those that do, they aren’t willing to rock the boat enough to speak up.

To get the proper arena, I (or someone like me) will have to pay for it and condition the money on very specific terms.
 
Wow, the last page of this thread is sorely lacking in perspective. Decades of systemic failure in the basketball program? Huh? Wake punched above its weight in MBB for most of its history prior to Skip's death. I'm no fan of Wellman, and yes, he tanked the program at the end of his tenure, but we were doing fine before things went off the rails in July 2007. GDO was a superlative coach. We had elite talent throughout most of the 90s and early aughts, and LJVM was a great home venue in those years.

It's reasonable to start making plans for a rebuild or a refresh. The timing makes sense with a new coach and new AD. But this idea that Wake boosters and the Wake AD somehow screwed the pooch by having Wake go in with the city to build the Joel back in the day is just inane.
 
Can't remember, did people complain about the size of the Joel with Skip and Dino were head coaches? Isn't it just a matter of winning? Heck you see most teams with smaller arenas are not even remotely filling them up. Anyone know a site showing ACC BB attendance? Curious where wake falls.
 
donaldross said:
I mean he’s right about one thing: you can’t change it without it. Lord knows I’ve tried for 2+ decades now. Wake Forest alums have proven they ain’t buying this argument or, for those that do, they aren’t willing to rock the boat enough to speak up.

To get the proper arena, I (or someone like me) will have to pay for it and condition the money on very specific terms.
Click to expand...

I’m not trying to hijack the thread, but the gap between your actual and perceived importance is massive.

“I’ve tried for 2+ decades now”. Get over yourself.
No, you’ve run your mouth on message boards for 20 years and try to act like you’re some sort of player in the world of got Wake Athletics. Just drop the schtick dude, it’s embarrassing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top