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WAKE/DUKE THREAD

gmac91 said:
Dude, we lost, by a lot. Generally teams that lose don't look good doing it. But sure the team has a lot to improve upon no doubt. That doesn't make my statements incorrect. I didn't say it was a good performance, I said it was a good experience and good effort. Some or our better teams have looked worse at Cameron. Record or not this team is much better team than the last two years. These players want to play, want to be coached and want to improve and want to do so together with this coaching staff. That wasn't the case before.

A loss is a loss, and there aren't 'moral' victories. But you can lose with grit or you can hang your head. This team chose the former. I don't see a final four team, but I do see a team that is improving. Even if these guys turn out to have a ceiling lower than we would want, I find them easy to root for. Sue me.
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I agree we have more talent this year than last year - and having a couple of PGs helps that tremendously. And I never accused the players of hanging their heads or quitting today. And I don't dislike any of our players. But you say the players want to improve and be coached by our coaches and this was not the case before. If that indeed is true, how effin' pathetic is that?!? It takes 3 seasons before your players are willing to listen to you?!?

I actually disagree with you that there aren't any moral victories. I actually like to watch some of our less talented teams play good games against more talented teams even if they come up short and would rather watch that than say watch one of our #1 teams coast against a Coastal Carolina. And sure, while I like the kids and will root for them, if you watch our games with open eyes, you will quickly realize that we are still poorly coached and that they will likely never put in a single good defensive performance. And I just don't find it satisfying watching bad basketball despite our players being likeable and having good attitudes. Sorry that I have higher standards for what used to be my favorite sport.
 
KVegasDeac said:
None. Our defense has been terrible for years.

Which is exactly why I don't get some of these posts.

#BzzOut
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No, once Dino realized we weren't getting it done defensively, and he sought out Dick Bennett to learn the packline man, we did have good Ds for those few years. Though our offensive halfcourt sets with Dino were pretty awful.
 
DirkTheDeac said:
WWSS... what would Skip say?
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Maybe that he has been in this story before? Hopefully we will start seeing some of the Ws too.

Sat 01/19/2002 Duke Durham, N.C. ABC L, 103-80
Thu 02/21/2002 Duke Winston-Salem, N.C. ESPN L, 90-61
Sun 01/12/2003 Duke Durham, N.C. FoxNet L, 74-55
Thu 02/13/2003 Duke Winston-Salem, N.C. ESPN2 W, 94-80 (2OT)
Sat 01/17/2004 Duke Durham, N.C. ABC L, 84-72
Wed 02/18/2004 Duke Winston-Salem, N.C. ESPN W, 90-84
Wed 02/02/2005 Duke Lawrence Joel Coliseum ESPN W, 92-89
Sun 02/20/2005 Duke Durham, NC Fox Sports Net L, 102-92
01/08/06 vs. Duke Winston-Salem, NC L, 82-64
02/14/06 at Duke Durham, NC L, 93-70
01/18/07 at Duke TV Durham, N.C. L, 62-40
 
I meant what would he say about getting them in the Joel.
 
scooter84 said:
I assume this is true... but, I remember staying up late to watch that game in the Alaska tourney against Alaska Anchorage, IIRC. I remember that Timmy didn't score but I remember thinking it was obvious he had tremendous potential - I thought that was because he had a bunch of rebounds and blocks... but maybe not?
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Can't believe this was allowed to pass. Timmy 10 minutes 0 points 7 rbs 1 pf 1 to 1 block. I certainly hope our SID didn't feed that to Williams.

ETA: I posted this while reading page 27, and I see Ph got it later. Still amazed only two caught this. Somewhat funny to think that the guy that would win 4 NBA rings and maybe a top 10 all time NBA player only played 10 min in his first game. Of course Odom's first thought with Duncan was to redshirt him. Thankfully Maktar was ruled ineligible.
 
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cville deac said:
No, once Dino realized we weren't getting it done defensively, and he sought out Dick Bennett to learn the packline man, we did have good Ds for those few years. Though our offensive halfcourt sets with Dino were pretty awful.
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Okay. So minus the Dino years, our d has been bad for a while.

It was bad today, but did you expect any different? They are quicker, stronger, smarter, more mature, and battle tested. The game I watched today was exactly how I thought it would be. Our guys were pumped, they played hard but they were no match for a well coached, experienced team full of HS AAs.
 
The game was a lot like the @ Duke game that I remembered from last year.
 
TBR said:
The game was a lot like the @ Duke game that I remembered from last year.
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Yep. Moral victory. We only lost to Duke by 8 at home last season. Moral victory.
 
PhDeac said:
Yep. Moral victory. We only lost to Duke by 8 at home last season. Moral victory.
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Well that game followed the opposite pattern. Fell behind early and then came back when Duke quit caring.

That was my last game as a senior, a win would have gotten me off [Redacted]'s back for a while.
 
For the record, since 1997 this is what we've accomplished in Cameron.

1998 - 47-78 (31 pts) dook #2 Wake in NIT Coach Odom
1999 - 71-102 (31 pts) dook #1 Wake in NIT Coach Odom
2000 - 78-96 (18 pts) dook #2 Wake NIT Coach Odom
2001 - 62-85 (23 pts) dook #2 Wake #9 Wake NCAA (Butler) Coach Odom
2002 - 80-103 (23 pts) dook #1 Wake #14 Wake NCAA (2nd round) Coach Prosser
2003 - 55-74 ( 19 pts) dook #1 Wake #17 Wake NCAA (2nd round) Coach Prosser
2004 - 72-84 (12 pts) dook #2 Wake #4 Wake NCAA (sweet 16) Coach Prosser
2005 - 92-102 (10 pts) dook #7 Wake #5 Wake NCAA (2nd round) Coach Prosser
2006 - 70-93 (23 pts) dook #2 Wake NIT Coach Prosser
2007 - 40-62 (22 pts) dook #14 Coach Prosser
2008 - DNP in Cameron
2009 - 91-101 (10 pts) dook #9, Wake #8 Wake NCAA (1st round) Coach Gaudio
2010 - 70-90 (20pts) dook ?, Wake ? Wake NCAA (2nd round) Coach Gaudio
2011- DNP in Cameron
2012 - 73-91 (18 pts) dook ? Coach Bzz

I didn't have easy access to the rankings for the last 3 entries.

So yes this year looked like most years and in a relative sense it didn't look as bad as some of our best teams did in Cameron.

Sure, no moral victories, but we should be encouraged that our freshmen didn't just roll over because their first ACC game was in Cameron against the #1 team in the country. If we had taken a poll, I'd bet 80%+ would have bet we'd have been down 15+ at after the first 5 minutes.

Baby steps.
 
Deac83 said:
Can't believe this was allowed to pass. Timmy 10 minutes 0 points 7 rbs 1 pf 1 to 1 block. I certainly hope our SID didn't feed that to Williams.

ETA: I posted this while reading page 27, and I see Ph got it later. Still amazed only two caught this. Somewhat funny to think that the guy that would win 4 NBA rings and maybe a top 10 all time NBA player only played 10 min in his first game. Of course Odom's first thought with Duncan was to redshirt him. Thankfully Maktar was ruled ineligible.
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Tim altered a few shots that night. He also kept the ball high and made good passes. is talent was obvious.
 
Deac83 said:
For the record, since 1997 this is what we've accomplished in Cameron.

1998 - 47-78 (31 pts) dook #2 Wake in NIT Coach Odom
1999 - 71-102 (31 pts) dook #1 Wake in NIT Coach Odom
2000 - 78-96 (18 pts) dook #2 Wake NIT Coach Odom
2001 - 62-85 (23 pts) dook #2 Wake #9 Wake NCAA (Butler) Coach Odom
2002 - 80-103 (23 pts) dook #1 Wake #14 Wake NCAA (2nd round) Coach Prosser
2003 - 55-74 ( 19 pts) dook #1 Wake #17 Wake NCAA (2nd round) Coach Prosser
2004 - 72-84 (12 pts) dook #2 Wake #4 Wake NCAA (sweet 16) Coach Prosser
2005 - 92-102 (10 pts) dook #7 Wake #5 Wake NCAA (2nd round) Coach Prosser
2006 - 70-93 (23 pts) dook #2 Wake NIT Coach Prosser
2007 - 40-62 (22 pts) dook #14 Coach Prosser
2008 - DNP in Cameron
2009 - 91-101 (10 pts) dook #9, Wake #8 Wake NCAA (1st round) Coach Gaudio
2010 - 70-90 (20pts) dook ?, Wake ? Wake NCAA (2nd round) Coach Gaudio
2011- DNP in Cameron
2012 - 73-91 (18 pts) dook ? Coach Bzz

I didn't have easy access to the rankings for the last 3 entries.

So yes this year looked like most years and in a relative sense it didn't look as bad as some of our best teams did in Cameron.

Sure, no moral victories, but we should be encouraged that our freshmen didn't just roll over because their first ACC game was in Cameron against the #1 team in the country. If we had taken a poll, I'd bet 80%+ would have bet we'd have been down 15+ at after the first 5 minutes.

Baby steps.
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In 2010, we were tied with less than 14 minutes to go. In 2009, we fell behind early, but were within 3 with less than 7 minutes left. We were up at halftime in 2005 and within 7 with 2 minutes to go. In 2004, we were down 4 with under 15 left. In 2003, it was tied late in the first half. In 2002, we were down 1 with 11:15 left.

Please find me the instances where "some of our best teams" trailed by double digits for the entire final 28:36 of the game.
 
OldGoldBeard said:
In 2010, we were tied with less than 14 minutes to go. In 2009, we fell behind early, but were within 3 with less than 7 minutes left. We were up at halftime in 2005 and within 7 with 2 minutes to go. In 2004, we were down 4 with under 15 left. In 2003, it was tied late in the first half. In 2002, we were down 1 with 11:15 left.

Please find me the instances where "some of our best teams" trailed by double digits for the entire final 28:36 of the game.
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History over revisionist history, FTW!
 
OldGoldBeard said:
In 2010, we were tied with less than 14 minutes to go. In 2009, we fell behind early, but were within 3 with less than 7 minutes left. We were up at halftime in 2005 and within 7 with 2 minutes to go. In 2004, we were down 4 with under 15 left. In 2003, it was tied late in the first half. In 2002, we were down 1 with 11:15 left.

Please find me the instances where "some of our best teams" trailed by double digits for the entire final 28:36 of the game.
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Source please.
 
Deac83 said:
Source please.
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2010: 14:16 Al-Farouq Aminu made Two Point Dunk Shot. Assisted by Ishmael Smith. 56-55
13:55 56-58 Kyle Singler made Three Point Jumper.

http://espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=300170150

2009: 6:54 Jeff Teague made Two Point Jumper. 80-83
6:31 Foul on Jeff Teague 80-83
6:31 80-84 Elliot Williams made Free Throw.

http://espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=290530150

2005: 1:04 Taron Downey made 3 Pt. Jumper 44-42
0:04 Chris Ellis missed Dunk 44-42
0:04 44-42 End of the 1st half.

1:32 Chris Paul made Free Throw 88-95
1:12 Foul on Justin Gray 88-95
1:12 88-95 DeMarcus Nelson missed Free Throw
1:12 88-96 DeMarcus Nelson made Free Throw
1:12 88-96 Foul on Reggie Love
1:09 Chris Paul missed Free Throw 88-96
1:09 Chris Paul made Free Throw 89-96

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/schedule/_/id/154/year/2005/wake-forest-demon-deacons

2004: 15:23 Jamaal Levy made Dunk 44-48
15:05 Foul on Trent Strickland 44-48
14:58 44-48 J.J. Redick missed 3 Pt. Jumper
14:58 44-50 Shelden Williams made Layup

http://espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=240170150

2003: And Wake Forest got off to a fast start, but Duke closed the first half with a 10-0 run to take control.

Duhon had quite a final six minutes of the period. He nailed three 3-pointers in a span of 2:50 to get Duke's struggling offense jumpstarted. After displaying his range, Duhon then fed Casey Sanders and Randolph for dunks as the Blue Devils went on top 37-27 at the break.

http://espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=230120150

2002 (which I misstated, but there's not much difference): The Blue Devils had another big run in them Saturday after Wake Forest had closed to 76-73 with 10:41 left.

http://www.wakeforestsports.com/sports/m-baskbl/recaps/011902aaa.html
 
Impressive research, but for example, in 2005 we were down 19 with 7 minutes to go. Whoope de doo we were ahead in the 1st half and then got run in the second half, tried to make a show of it when dook was probably running clock. That was our previously #1 ranked team that fell apart in Cameron.

I think the point is that our 'good' team were not trading baskets with dook in the last few minutes only to have the last basket decide it. Most of these games were over when 'crunch time' came.
 
Deac83 said:
Impressive research, but for example, in 2005 we were down 19 with 7 minutes to go. Whoope de doo we were ahead in the 1st half and then got run in the second half, tried to make a show of it when dook was probably running clock. That was our previously #1 ranked team that fell apart in Cameron.

I think the point is that our 'good' team were not trading baskets with dook in the last few minutes only to have the last basket decide it. Most of these games were over when 'crunch time' came.
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Good Christ, shut up. You asked for sources, he brought the figurative thunder. You lose, he wins. Stop conflating and take your lumps.
 
IrishSlim said:
Good Christ, shut up. You asked for sources, he brought the figurative thunder. You lose, he wins. Stop conflating and take your lumps.
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Right, I can also pick out points in time during the game. I don't know what it's so hard to people to understand you can only evaluate performance relative to the quality of your team. If you bring a top 10 team into Cameron and are down by 19 late in the second half, do I really care? I'll bet if you could go back in the archived on the old board (if possible) you would not be seeing these same people saying how wonderful it was at that we cut the 19 point lead to 7 and only lost by 10.

That's your revisionist history there.

Since you like stats,

2001 - 62-85 (23 pts) dook #2 Wake #9 Wake NCAA (Butler) Coach Odom

Down by 12 at half time (49-61), yes 61 points in a half given up by a top 10 Wake team in Cameron.

We can certainly parse all the data in every game, but it all amounts to the same thing, since 1997 no Wake team has been closer than 10 points at the end of the game. And there are only 3 teams that have been closer than 18 points. And just like today most of those games were against a #1 or #2 dook team.

The reality is that as long as we didn't lay down and get rolled by dook from the opening tip and our frosh didn't look scared to be there, that's probably the best we could have expected (and that's reality not trying to lower expectation, it's where we are whether we want to be there or not). What is more important is what the team does on Wed. vs. UVA. I can't lose sleep over this loss, lose at home to UVA and that's a completely different story.
 
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