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Pro Life / Pro Choice Debate

Clearly women need some men to tell them what is in their bodies, what they are doing, and to dictate the appropriate punishment for their actions.

Meanwhile, keep bombing the middle east because they deny women's rights and if we kill some women and children in the process well thats a shame
 
Wrangor said:
Eventually, yes. Short term most certainly not. Abortion is an explosive topic to discuss, and most people aren't really interesting in discussing it. I don't feel you are honestly interesting in a discussion with this to be honest (its pretty clear you are just trying to paint me into the same corner as Trump). If I were to implement a plan that stopped abortions you would have to make it a gentle slope. The reality is that women who get abortions are in large part not convinced that they are killing a human being. There are some women out there who know what they are doing, but that is in my opinion very rare. I think they have been convinced, or have have convinced themselves that they are simply removing a tumor, and not a living breathing human. Based on the reality that abortion has been legal for decades it would be foolish to reverse that course and immediately impose the maximum sanctions against the mother.

I do think you could immediately impose penalties on any doctor that performed an abortion. That would start the trend and start reducing the amount of abortions drastically, and I would probably put in place the full weight of the crime within a decade or so. This is not a trite issue, and the reality is that if abortion is the killing of an innocent life (which I, and many other pro-life people believe it is) then it is the killing of an innocent life. You don't need to sugarcoat it. You also need to be wise in implementing and realize that this is a massive freighter you are attempting to turn around in the ocean and it would be extremely unwise to to imagine you can slam on the breaks and handle the issue like a Jet-Ski. IT would take years and possibly decades to sort out the realities of implementing a ban on abortions for a nation of our size.

So I am not sure if were looking for a REAL answer, but that is it. Eventually you would have to get to penalizing women who abort their own child. You would start with the doctors that perform that abortions, and work your way down over time to the mother. It might take an entire generation to erase the false gospel that we have been preached regarding what abortion is and what it isn't. The lawmakers would simply have to have the wisdom to judge that process as it unfolds, but by imprisoning the doctors the vast majority of abortions would be immediately eliminated.
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Thanks for the response. Serious questions:

1. Why no punishment immediately for mothers? Are they less capable of comprehending that abortion is murder (in this hypothetical America where it has been criminalized as such) than doctors?

2. Once punishment had been fully phased in would the maximum punishment for both mother and doctor be the death penalty?

3. Also if there is no need to sugarcoat it, why wait ten years? Do you think most women will come to believe that killing a fetus is murder if you promise to go light on them for ten years?
 
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if abortion is murder now then the punishments should start now. there is no logically consistent reason to differentiate between the doctor and the mother. murder is murder.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
I think viability is the distinguishing line. So around the start of the third trimester?
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So, in the legal sense murder could only occur in the case of an abortion after the beginning of viability, that is, being able to survive outside the mother's womb. If you wanted to punish women for murder for having abortions, you would first legally have to define the beginning if human life as the moment of conception, or at least some point before a woman could be aware that she was pregnant.

As things stand now, abortion before viability could be considered the taking of human life in the moral, religious or philosophical sense but does not necessarily have to be.
 
sailordeac said:
So, in the legal sense murder could only occur in the case of an abortion after the beginning of viability, that is, being able to survive outside the mother's womb. If you wanted to punish women for murder for having abortions, you would first legally have to define the beginning if human life as the moment of conception, or at least some point before a woman could be aware that she was pregnant.

As things stand now, abortion before viability could be considered the taking of human life in the moral, religious or philosophical sense but does not necessarily have to be.
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Right, but I thought we were talking about Trump's theoretical world where he is making the laws and abortion is illegal.
 
Most likely scenario would be that Roe vs Wade is overturned and the legal/illegal is left up to individual states. I can't see a nationwide ban on abortion anytime in my lifetime.
 
sailordeac said:
I don't give a shit about Donald Thump or his theoretical world. I was merely dealing with the question of abortion and whether or not people having abortions should be punished.
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Ah okay - well presently very rarely would they or should they. The only reason the topic has come up at all is because Trump said in his ideal world abortions would be illegal and women should be punished for getting them. Nobody has really brought up the topic period under the current structure. I didn't follow I apologize.
 
sailordeac said:
I don't give a shit about Donald Thump or his theoretical world. I was merely dealing with the question of abortion and whether or not people having abortions should be punished.
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if you think it's murder then you must or you are being inconsistent
 
Wrangor said:
... It might take an entire generation to erase the false gospel that we have been preached regarding what abortion is and what it isn't...
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You can't be that freaking naive. Do you know how many years a generation is? 20 or so. How long have women been having abortions, legal or otherwise? You think 20 years of imprisoning well meaning doctors is going to change anything? Roe v Wade was decided 43 years ago, over 2 generations, why haven't you changed your mind?
 
BobStackFan4Life said:
I'm worried about overpopulation destroying all of us, not to mention all the other species that are going extinct as a result of human overpopulation- so I support abortion even though I don't like it. But I tend to find the moral argument against it compelling.
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You need to pump the brakes and enjoy life a bit.
 
On second thought, I think there is room for someone who is anti-abortion to say "I believe abortion is murder and that women and doctors who have/facilitate abortions deserve to be punished as murderers. However, although the state should make abortion illegal, it should not punish women and doctors as murderers."

It's similar to the line of thinking many Serial fans have: "I think Adnan did it, and deserves to be punished for it, but I don't think the state proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt and therefore because of how our system of justice works, I think he should be released form prison."

To support the charge of murder there must be a victim who is a person. Categorically speaking, the state (or really pro-lifers) cannot prove to the general public that a fetus is a person beyond a reasonable doubt so the killing of a fetus, while "murder" in the moral sense, can never meet the legal definition of murder.

There are tons of problems with that argument, but I can at least see how a reasonable person could believe abortion is murder without necessarily thinking the government should punish it as such.
 
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