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Pro Life / Pro Choice Debate

WakeandBake said:
so rich
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Woah, woah, woah. Are you telling me you're not waking up to the truth yet? Here's a bumper sticker for when you get there.

guns_dont_kill_people_abortions_do_bumper_stkr_car_bumper_sticker-rb4c9f45572124cb6919e9734b04c6bb4_v9wht_8byvr_324.jpg
 
RChildress107 said:
On second thought, I think there is room for someone who is anti-abortion to say "I believe abortion is murder and that women and doctors who have/facilitate abortions deserve to be punished as murderers. However, although the state should make abortion illegal, it should not punish women and doctors as murderers."

It's similar to the line of thinking many Serial fans have: "I think Adnan did it, and deserves to be punished for it, but I don't think the state proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt and therefore because of how our system of justice works, I think he should be released form prison."

To support the charge of murder there must be a victim who is a person. Categorically speaking, the state (or really pro-lifers) cannot prove to the general public that a fetus is a person beyond a reasonable doubt so the killing of a fetus, while "murder" in the moral sense, can never meet the legal definition of murder.

There are tons of problems with that argument, but I can at least see how a reasonable person could believe abortion is murder without necessarily thinking the government should punish it as such.
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I know you are mostly playing devil's advocate here, but to someone who believes abortion is murder, why should it matter whether the general public believes it is murder? Also, the general position seems to be that while the woman shouldn't be prosecuted, the doctor should (though maybe not for murder). To the person who believes it is murder, it is beyond a reasonable doubt.

It seems to me that someone who thinks abortion is murder, but that the woman should not be punished (or that the doctor should not be charged with murder, but some other, presumably lesser, crime) makes some sort of implicit recognition that there is a difference between a fetus (at least a non-viable fetus) and a baby or that a woman should have some degree of autonomy over her body - it's not just clear cut murder.

I give wrangor credit on this point. I think he is wholeheartedly wrong in every way shape and form, but he is at least consistent.
 
jhmd2000 said:
Let's go by trimesters:

First: Yes
Second: Yes
Third: Yes.

And you say?

Healthy child three days before delivery. Mom terminates pregnancy. That's a "What'evs, rub some dirt on it, kid" in your world?
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Wakelaw2006 said:
I know you are mostly playing devil's advocate here, but to someone who believes abortion is murder, why should it matter whether the general public believes it is murder? Also, the general position seems to be that while the woman shouldn't be prosecuted, the doctor should (though maybe not for murder). To the person who believes it is murder, it is beyond a reasonable doubt.

It seems to me that someone who thinks abortion is murder, but that the woman should not be punished (or that the doctor should not be charged with murder, but some other, presumably lesser, crime) makes some sort of implicit recognition that there is a difference between a fetus (at least a non-viable fetus) and a baby or that a woman should have some degree of autonomy over her body - it's not just clear cut murder.

I give wrangor credit on this point. I think he is wholeheartedly wrong in every way shape and form, but he is at least consistent.
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I'm entirely playing devil's advocate. I think your second paragraph accurately describes most people who think abortion is murder but that the woman should not be punished (for murder or at all).

The idea I was getting at is: in theory, for the state to punish someone for a crime we, as a society, need to be sure the person committed all of the elements of that crime. When over 50% of the population doesn't think a pre-viability fetus is a person, then society as a whole will never be sure that an abortion satisfies the elements of murder.

Recognizing that, its arguably reasonable and consistent for a pro-lifer to advocate for abortion being a crime separate from murder, even though he/she is personally convinced that abortion is murder.

They would still need separate arguments to explain: 1. why the mother shouldn't be punished (or should be punished less than the doctor; and 2. Why the separate crime of abortion shouldn't have murder-like punishments.
 
jhmd2000 said:
Let's go by trimesters:

First: No
Second: No
Third: Probably not. I'm ok with the gov't criminalizing it to be on the safe side and it is well within their power to do so. Charging third-trimester abortions as murder seems draconian and almost certainly wrong but a state would be well within it's constitutional rights to do so.
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happy now
 
Milhouse said:
if you think it's murder then you must or you are being inconsistent
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where did I say that I considered abortion murder?

as far as the critics of abortion, who call abortion murder, are concerned, they often don't appear to be using murder according to the legal defininition

what do you understand murder to mean?
 
So, what's wrong with what Trump said? Why did anti-abortion groups jump to decry it?
 
I didn't hear what trump said

I presume that it was something to the effect that women should be punished for having abortions

What's wrong? Currently, there is no legal basis for punishing women having abortions (lawyers can tell us if there are exceptions)

I have no idea what anti-abortion groups said about what Trumps said
 
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so you agree with what trump said? what punishment should women who choose abortion receive?
 
Milhouse said:
so you agree with what trump said? what punishment should women who choose abortion receive?
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A: Wake season tickets.

If, as I do, you believe that the really small human life form with a heartbeat and pain sensations is a human being, then you have to have a sanction. Without a sanction, there is no rule. I believe there should be a rule because that is a helpless human life, and thus a sanction. I don't see the other position if you believe that a developing baby is a human. To me, it's murder and the same sanctions should apply.

Do you think that there shouldn't be a sanction for unlawfully terminating a pregnancy at 38 weeks?
 
jhmd2000 said:
A: Wake season tickets.

If, as I do, you believe that the really small human life form with a heartbeat and pain sensations is a human being, then you have to have a sanction. Without a sanction, there is no rule. I believe there should be a rule because that is a helpless human life, and thus a sanction. I don't see the other position if you believe that a developing baby is a human. To me, it's murder and the same sanctions should apply.

Do you think that there shouldn't be a sanction for unlawfully terminating a pregnancy at 38 weeks?
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Are there a lot of people on here who suggest that abortion post-viability should be allowed for anything but the health of the mother? Where is the 38-week strawman (straw-fetus?) coming from?
 
I can't figure out who is having a worse time at reading comprehension and context between JHMD and Sailor.
 
Nobody is arguing on here that you should be able to abort at 38 weeks.

The entire ongoing conversation is dealing with a scenario where abortion is illegal and what the punishment for connected parties should be at that point.

Trump apparently believes that the mother should be punished if abortion is illegal and the mother gets one. This is an extreme position for national politicians (even Huckabee and Santorum, the far right bible thumpers, are against this).

The question that was asked to you JHMD was: do you agree with Trump that mothers should be punished if they get abortions and they are illegal? It seems that your answer is yes but it's impossible to tell since you keep trying to criticize "liberals" for being ideologically inconsistent or something.
 
jhmd2000 said:
But 24 hours after its birth, Mom drowns her baby and it's murder, right? What's the difference? Sunlight on the child's skin?
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oh I don't know, birth maybe. Let's not pretend that going from being inside the womb, totally dependent on another specific human to breathing on your own out in the real world is comparable to crossing the street.

Regardless of whether you think a 39 week old fetus is a person, you can't deny that birth brings about a fundamental change in the existence of that being.
 
RChildress107 said:
oh I don't know, birth maybe. Let's not pretend that going from being inside the womb, totally dependent on another specific human to breathing on your own out in the real world is comparable to crossing the street.

Regardless of whether you think a 39 week old fetus is a person, you can't deny that birth brings about a fundamental change in the existence of that being.
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So the line has moved from viability to birth? Amazing.

To your credit, you answered the question.
 
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Wakeforest22890 said:
Nobody is arguing on here that you should be able to abort at 38 weeks.

The entire ongoing conversation is dealing with a scenario where abortion is illegal and what the punishment for connected parties should be at that point.

Trump apparently believes that the mother should be punished if abortion is illegal and the mother gets one. This is an extreme position for national politicians (even Huckabee and Santorum, the far right bible thumpers, are against this).

The question that was asked to you JHMD was: do you agree with Trump that mothers should be punished if they get abortions and they are illegal? It seems that your answer is yes but it's impossible to tell since you keep trying to criticize "liberals" for being ideologically inconsistent or something.
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I answered your question. Yes, without apology, because I believe a developing human child is a human worthy of protection. Yes in the first trimester. Yes in the second trimester. Yes in the third trimester. Yes, yes, yes. You on the other hand are indeed being ideologically inconsistent, if you a) argue viability is the line, and b) do nothing when someone crosses that line. Quit obfuscating and believe in your position enough to answer my question about the second and third trimesters.

I have not seen your answer to my question, twice repeated, about the appropriateness of a sanction for unlawfully terminating a pregnancy at 38 weeks. This would be the third time I ask you. Anytime would be fine, cupcake.
 
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I don't believe in punishing women for getting an abortion. I think if you want to punish doctors who perform abortions in the third trimester in an illegal manner then go for it.

I already answered that twice above.
 
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