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Pro Life / Pro Choice Debate

jhmd2000 said:
I just showed you a link to a statute in a majority of this Nations' States which says it is murder when the wrong person takes the life. Now might be a good time to climb down off the top of Mount Logical Consistency.
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What a coincidence, that we can both Google "feticide". I assume you're trying in your own clumsy way to say that it's hypocritical for some pro-choice democrats to support feticide legislation. I don't care what you think about those Democrats. You're arguing with me, not them. I support feticide legislation as it's a woman's choice (there's that word again!) to carry a pregnancy to term.
 
jhmd2000 said:
And yet when an expecting woman is murdered by a third party and the baby dies, the assailant is charged with two homicides.

Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws. The states include: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx

Here's California's: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=187-199
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Right, because criminal law is a state issue and fetal homicide laws dont infringe on a constitutionally protected right.

Not to mention that many of those laws were passed by pro-life supporters in order to make the point you think you are making here (even though it doesn't apply).
 
WakeandBake said:
Ah Jesus Christ a lawyer splitting hairs. Ok, not the Constitution, the fucking law.
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Not trying to split hairs. In my view even if a pre-viability fetus is a person, applying state criminal laws to an abortion of that person would violate the constitution.

The validity of Roe v. Wade is not contingent on a fetus's lack of personhood.
 
RChildress107 said:
Not trying to split hairs. In my view even if a pre-viability fetus is a person, applying state criminal laws to an abortion of that person would violate the constitution.

The validity of Roe v. Wade is not contingent on a fetus's lack of personhood.
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fair enough.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
What a coincidence, that we can both Google "feticide". I assume you're trying in your own clumsy way to say that it's hypocritical for some pro-choice democrats to support feticide legislation. I don't care what you think about those Democrats. You're arguing with me, not them. I support feticide legislation as it's a woman's choice (there's that word again!) to carry a pregnancy to term.
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R.I.P. Logical Consistency. You had a good run.
 
Wrangor said:
Eventually yes. However, I understand this issue is one that has evolved over time and think it would be wise to implement a slow moving policy. Punish the doctors that commit the acts immediately and phase in punishment against the mothers over time.

I know you aren't being sincere, but that is my honest answer.
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I am sincere in all of this. You don't like my debate style, because you think it is gotcha. But I am trying to point out that there is lots of baby killing happening all around us and many prolifers choose to willfully ignore it in favor of this fight. Can you see how it is mystifying to me and others?

I'll give you murder charges for mothers and doctors who commit abortions.

How would you feel about war crimes charges for commanders - including commanders in chief - who willfully and knowingly send lethal munitions into areas populated by innocents? this includes the current president and the previous three, at the very least.
 
I'm very consistent about supporting a woman's choice until the current point of viability. Let me know where you became confused about that.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk
 
Wrangor said:
Say viability was 8 weeks. Is that where you would draw the line?
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Yes. I can't reconcile individual personhood and incapability of living outside someone's body.
 
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If Obama knew a suspected terrorist was hiding among families at a wedding and gave the go ahead for a drone strike to take out the target and a baby died, doesn't he deserve to be tried for murder?
 
Wrangor said:
Eventually yes. However, I understand this issue is one that has evolved over time and think it would be wise to implement a slow moving policy. Punish the doctors that commit the acts immediately and phase in punishment against the mothers over time.

I know you aren't being sincere, but that is my honest answer.
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In your future, an expectant mother (9 weeks along) continues to drink legal alcohol and smoke legal tobacco during her pregnancy. At 23 weeks, she gives birth to a stillborn. Murder?
 
Wrangor said:
Tough scenario. Not murder but probably child neglect or abuse. Manslaughter perhaps? I have no illusion that banning abortion is somehow going to make life simpler. It would make things much more complicated. But I don't set my ethos based upon what is the simplest or easiest path to take.
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Admittedly, aborting inconvenient children is much more convenient.
 
"he said, typing his attempted repartee into his pocket computer"

interesting that you believe we somehow don't live in that world already
 
Wrangor said:
Say viability was 8 weeks. Is that where you would draw the line?
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From a constitutional standpoint probably (in my view, regardless of viability the closer you get to conception the murkier the govt interest becomes. But that's partly because I don't think a fetus is a person).

From a moral or legislative standpoint (i.e. what I think the law should be state to state) absolutely not. I wouldn't vote for a law that banned abortion earlier than the third trimester. Abortion doesn't become a morally squishy issue until 28-29 weeks for me (the earliest point personhood could possibly begin).
 
This is a fascinating discussion. Lots of talk about constitutions and criminal law and bibles. I'm just curious if any of you (probably all, or mostly, men) have any personal experience with abortion or unwanted pregnancies.
 
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