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FSU @ Wake Game Thread

We were 2-16. There's no way you can convince me that trying it would have been a bad idea.
 
What we know for sure is the way Danny handled John led to one of the biggest year-to-year improvements in Wake basketball history. In my fifty years of watching Wake basketball, the only bigger improvement was Tim frosh to soph.

You can guess what might have happened or discuss what did happen.

If you want to do the latter, here are a couple of other things that may happened. John could have gotten frustrated at being doubled every time he turned to the basket. John could have gotten frustrated by getting the ball at a far lower rate of usage. John could committed more fouls and gotten the reputation that stunted his soph year. Because being used so much less, Dinos could have gone back to Greece after his soph year which would have ruined last year for us (this is pretty likely). Devin could have frustrated and not given representative numbers and John's better numbers could have been balanced out or worse. If John got frustrated as frosh, would he have listened to the coaches as much as obviously did?

There are other negative possibilities versus the positive one of winning maybe a game or two or maybe even three more in a failed season.
 
RJKarl said:
What we know for sure is the way Danny handled John led to one of the biggest year-to-year improvements in Wake basketball history. In my fifty years of watching Wake basketball, the only bigger improvement was Tim frosh to soph.

You can guess what might have happened or discuss what did happen.

If you want to do the latter, here are a couple of other things that may happened. John could have gotten frustrated at being doubled every time he turned to the basket. John could have gotten frustrated by getting the ball at a far lower rate of usage. John could committed more fouls and gotten the reputation that stunted his soph year. Because being used so much less, Dinos could have gone back to Greece after his soph year which would have ruined last year for us (this is pretty likely). Devin could have frustrated and not given representative numbers and John's better numbers could have been balanced out or worse. If John got frustrated as frosh, would he have listened to the coaches as much as obviously did?

There are other negative possibilities versus the positive one of winning maybe a game or two or maybe even three more in a failed season.
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Or...maybe he does have fouling issues and extra playing time improves on his defense. Maybe he faces double teams and becomes a better interior passer. Maybe John starts to prove his ability to hit a jump shot earlier and Manning gives him more of a green light, opening up driving lanes for the rest of the team. Maybe the extra couple wins help us get some recruiting momentum and our 2018 class is even better.

These are just as likely as your scenarios. Kudos to both Manning and Collins for his improvement, but it's almost hard to tell how much improvement there was because John wasn't given enough run to prove himself and was extremely productive in the minutes he was in. That said, to say that his improvement was BECAUSE he didn't play more or never played alongside Devin, seems like a huge stretch.
 
On paper, last year’s team was less talented than any team [name redacted] ever coached at Wake. Manning won 19 games, went to the NCAA tournament, and finished as a top 40 team.

Maybe we should stop second guessing how he chose to develop his three star recruit into one of the best 50 big men in the world and just be thankful that he did. It’s the only relevant thing to happen to Wake basketball this decade.
 
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Saying going 4-14 vs. 2-16 will create recruiting momentum is almost laughable and you know it.

Dinos being on the court created driving lanes for others and space to operate for Devin and John.

He also did play alongside Devin a few times. I NEVER said "to say that his improvement was BECAUSE he didn't play more or never played alongside Devin".

I say enough. You don't have to invent things I didn't say.
 
RChildress107 said:
On paper, last year’s team was less talented than any team [name redacted] ever coached at Wake. Manning won 19 games, went to the NCAA tournament, and finished as a top 40 team.

Maybe we should stop second guessing how he chose to develop his three star recruit into one of the best 50 big men in the world and just be thankful that he did. It’s the only relevant thing to happen to Wake basketball this decade.
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I'm encouraged by our coach's ability to develop players. I am skeptical of our coach's ability to manage line ups and use the talent he has helped develop to win games. Having a talent like John Collins and only playing him 14 mins per game seems like a gross misuse of that talent, especially on a bad team. If the only way for Manning to develop players is to have them sit on the bench while less talented players play over them, that's a big problem, and is going to lead to inconsistency and years and stretches where our team is horrible.

I am willing to give Manning the benefit of the doubt in hopes that he can be competitive with the talented, experienced team we have next year, but I am definitely concerned. 3 out of 4 years, his team has been a failure.
 
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TBDeac said:
I'm encouraged by our coach's ability to develop players. I am skeptical of our coach's ability to manage line ups and use the talent he has helped develop to win games. Having a talent like John Collins and only playing him 14 mins per game seems like a gross misuse of that talent, especially on a bad team. If the only way for Manning to develop players is to have them sit on the bench while less talented players play over them, that's a big problem, and is going to lead to inconsistency and years and stretches where our team is horrible.

I am willing to give Manning the benefit of the doubt in hopes that he can be competitive with the talented, experienced team we have next year, but I am definitely concerned. 3 out of 4 years, his team has been a failure.
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Yep. Good post.
 
TBDeac said:
I'm encouraged by our coach's ability to develop players. I am skeptical of our coach's ability to manage line ups and use the talent he has helped develop to win games. Having a talent like John Collins and only playing him 14 mins per game seems like a gross misuse of that talent, especially on a bad team. If the only way for Manning to develop players is to have them sit on the bench while less talented players play over them, that's a big problem, and is going to lead to inconsistency and years and stretches where our team is horrible.

I am willing to give Manning the benefit of the doubt in hopes that he can be competitive with the talented, experienced team we have next year, but I am definitely concerned. 3 out of 4 years, his team has been a failure.
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HE WAS A 3* RECRUIT!

Y’all are acting like Manning had Marvin Bagley on the bench and was only playing him 14 mpg. Manning played Collins as much as he thought Collins had earned and could handle. Was he a little on the cautious side? Maybe. Would it have made a difference in our record that season? Not much.

There is literally no historical precedent for a U.S. based player ranked outside the top 100 in high school playing as well as Collins is playing at age 20. None.

Y’all seriously believe that all of that improvement happened in the couple of months after Collins senior year before he stepped foot on campus? Seriously?
 
hear me out - this is a crazy thought

maybe, just maybe, the recruiting rankings for John were wrong, and they underestimated his ability
 
RChildress107 said:
HE WAS A 3* RECRUIT!

Y’all are acting like Manning had Marvin Bagley on the bench and was only playing him 14 mpg. Manning played Collins as much as he thought Collins had earned and could handle. Was he a little on the cautious side? Maybe. Would it have made a difference in our record that season? Not much.

There is literally no historical precedent for a U.S. based player ranked outside the top 100 in high school playing as well as Collins is playing at age 20. None.

Y’all seriously believe that all of that improvement happened in the couple of months after Collins senior year before he stepped foot on campus? Seriously?
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1. He was underrated as a recruit.
2. He didn't get as much credit for being really good in his freshman year as he should have, because he didn't play enough minutes.
3. He still made amazing progress in order to become the best big man in the country between his freshman and sophomore year.

Just because 3 is true, doesn't mean 1 and 2 aren't.
 
TBDeac said:
I'm encouraged by our coach's ability to develop players. I am skeptical of our coach's ability to manage line ups and use the talent he has helped develop to win games. Having a talent like John Collins and only playing him 14 mins per game seems like a gross misuse of that talent, especially on a bad team. If the only way for Manning to develop players is to have them sit on the bench while less talented players play over them, that's a big problem, and is going to lead to inconsistency and years and stretches where our team is horrible.

I am willing to give Manning the benefit of the doubt in hopes that he can be competitive with the talented, experienced team we have next year, but I am definitely concerned. 3 out of 4 years, his team has been a failure.
Click to expand...

4 out of 4 years his team hasn’t had the talent (on paper) to compete in the ACC. It’s almost like it takes time to rebuild a completely decimated program. I think the schedule-inflated win total [Redacted]’s last year made people forget just how truly awful we were and just how little he left Manning.
 
RChildress107 said:
HE WAS A 3* RECRUIT!

Y’all are acting like Manning had Marvin Bagley on the bench and was only playing him 14 mpg. Manning played Collins as much as he thought Collins had earned and could handle. Was he a little on the cautious side? Maybe. Would it have made a difference in our record that season? Not much.

There is literally no historical precedent for a U.S. based player ranked outside the top 100 in high school playing as well as Collins is playing at age 20. None.

Y’all seriously believe that all of that improvement happened in the couple of months after Collins senior year before he stepped foot on campus? Seriously?
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stahp already

please

just stop

I’m watching NC State sit on a 15-7 (5-4) record in a mid major coach’s first year with comparable talent to ours (maybe worse?) and they’re beating Notre Dame by 25 points.

Just stop. Please.
 
RChildress107 said:
4 out of 4 years his team hasn’t had the talent (on paper) to compete in the ACC. It’s almost like it takes time to rebuild a completely decimated program. I think the schedule-inflated win total [name redacted]’s last year made people forget just how truly awful we were and just how little he left Manning.
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That's Manning's fault!
 
RChildress107 said:
4 out of 4 years his team hasn’t had the talent (on paper) to compete in the ACC. It’s almost like it takes time to rebuild a completely decimated program. I think the schedule-inflated win total [Redacted]’s last year made people forget just how truly awful we were and just how little he left Manning.
Click to expand...

Look at what Jamie Dixon has done at TCU in just 2 years and get back to me. He made them competitive from day one.
 
thatguy2016 said:
hear me out - this is a crazy thought

maybe, just maybe, the recruiting rankings for John were wrong, and they underestimated his ability
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No shit. And maybe, just maybe, Manning had something to do with John putting up numbers at age 20 that prior to him had only been put up by top 10 recruits.

And maybe, just maybe, Manning deserves credit for realizing John was underrated.

Recruiting rankings are not perfect. But they don’t completely miss on top 10 big men.
 
RChildress107 said:
No shit. And maybe, just maybe, Manning had something to do with John putting up numbers at age 20 that prior to him had only been put up by top 10 recruits.

And maybe, just maybe, Manning deserves credit for realizing John was underrated.

Recruiting rankings are not perfect. But they don’t completely miss on top 10 big men.
Click to expand...

Nobody is arguing Manning does't get any credit for John becoming what he is.
 
Strickland33 said:
stahp already

please

just stop

I’m watching NC State sit on a 15-7 (5-4) record in a mid major coach’s first year with comparable talent to ours (maybe worse?) and they’re beating Notre Dame by 25 points.

Just stop. Please.
Click to expand...

Bluegrass Deac said:
Look at what Jamie Dixon has done at TCU in just 2 years and get back to me. He made them competitive from day one.
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Don’t know about TCU but I do know that State’s talent base never got as low as ours did under [Redacted]. It takes 3-4 years to completely turn over a roster. Manning inherited a 3* roster, next year he will have a 4* roster, on par with the two years immediately preceding [Redacted].
 
Well go look at what TCU did before Dixon got there and what they've done after. The one difference? Coaching.
 
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