Wake Forest Football 2018 Offseason Discussion

[tigerswood]

bruh, we've got more than one offseason of tape on Hinton

Isn't his game tape pretty good? I.e. better than Wolford's was before last year?

 

[PhDeac]

bruh, we've got more than one offseason of tape on Hinton

Yeah. And it looks pretty good, so what's the problem?



Wolford and Hinton were essentially co-starters until Wolford broke out in his 4th year in the program. Why not give Hinton until his 4th year in the program before writing him off?

 

[Stan Gable]

Hinton's skill will continue to be questioned until he can routinely make high school level passes.

 

[CharlotteDeac1]

Isn't his game tape pretty good? I.e. better than Wolford's was before last year?

Probably marginally, but the idea was that Hinton was better suited to run the offense at the time because he could escape pressure and create more easily with his feet. With a really good offensive line, I'd prefer a QB like Wolford who's really accurate and can create with the run when he needs to. I think Hinton will be good for us this year if he can stay healthy, but being worried about his passing accuracy isn't a farfetched concern. With him at QB we will utilize the run a lot more - which isn't necessarily bad since we have him, Carney, Colburn, and Beal - but we have some really top notch receivers that we need to get the ball to regularly.

 

[tigerswood]

The good thing, in my opinion, is that we'll likely look to throw downfield more due to Hinton having a stronger arm than Wolford, and apparently being more accurate (comparatively) in that regard than on the shorter throws. Teams will have to respect the deep ball to Washington, Dortch, etc., which will open up running lanes for Hinton and the RBs.

I'm completely fine with Hinton being 13-24 (around his career completion %) in a game if it's for 250 yds, with another 100 on the ground.

 

[CharlotteDeac1]

The good thing, in my opinion, is that we'll likely look to throw downfield more due to Hinton having a stronger arm than Wolford, and apparently being more accurate (comparatively) in that regard than on the shorter throws. Teams will have to respect the deep ball to Washington, Dortch, etc., which will open up running lanes for Hinton and the RBs.

I'm completely fine with Hinton being 13-24 (around his career completion %) in a game if it's for 250 yds, with another 100 on the ground.

Yeah the only issue I have with this is that it sounds like our offense from years prior to last year. Last year we finally had a good oline and a QB that could utilize that time to make good RPO decisions, with a lot of those throws coming on crossing routes and slants up the middle (short and intermediate passes, not a strength of Hinton's) and let the receiver create by anticipating when they'd be open before they were open - plus leading them into easy YAC with a good pass in front of them. Running and deep balls sounds way too similar to our offense before it got really good last year, main difference being our running game will be SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than those years.

 

[jaybone]

Probably marginally, but the idea was that Hinton was better suited to run the offense at the time because he could escape pressure and create more easily with his feet. With a really good offensive line, I'd prefer a QB like Wolford who's really accurate and can create with the run when he needs to. I think Hinton will be good for us this year if he can stay healthy, but being worried about his passing accuracy isn't a farfetched concern. With him at QB we will utilize the run a lot more - which isn't necessarily bad since we have him, Carney, Colburn, and Beal - but we have some really top notch receivers that we need to get the ball to regularly.

The truth is that Wolford was a really good runner and we had 10-15 running plays that were called QB runs last year. He just was fortunate to stay relatively healthy last year, though it was obvious he gutted out PT even in his very last game. Hinton will be great on those plays, but they have to be set up with quality drop back passes and the quick outs that Wolford was really good at. Hinton needs to get better and more consistent with those. Wolford also became elite with the triple option that was different than the triple option I grew up with (OU QB where the three options are the same as GTech's: Two RBs or a keeper). Wolford choices were RB, run, or fake run and swing pass or over the middle pass. Over the last 8 games, he became the king of this. Every read was fast and the right one. He was always a step or two ahead of the defense. I don't expect Hinton to be able to replicate that after missing 20 months of football until late next season, if then. But nobody else on our roster is going to come closer than Hinton in running it either.

 

[tigerswood]

Yeah the only issue I have with this is that it sounds like our offense from years prior to last year. Last year we finally had a good oline and a QB that could utilize that time to make good RPO decisions, with a lot of those throws coming on crossing routes and slants up the middle (short and intermediate passes, not a strength of Hinton's) and let the receiver create by anticipating when they'd be open before they were open - plus leading them into easy YAC with a good pass in front of them. Running and deep balls sounds way too similar to our offense before it got really good last year, main difference being our running game will be SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than those years.

Ehh, I complained often, as did others on here, that we never threw the ball more than 10 yards downfield for what seemed like years, until last year. That was primarily a product of the line being unable to protect a QB to allow any sort of deep route to develop.

 

[PhDeac]

Hinton's skill will continue to be questioned until he can routinely make high school level passes.

Funny thing to say about an Elite 11 regional QB.

Coming into last season, Wolford completed 58% of his passes and averaged 6.2 yards per attempt. Hinton has completed 53% of his passes and averaged 6.1 yards per attempt.

Last year, Wolford (158) and Hinton (156.8) had near identical QB ratings. Now it's hard to compare opponents, but both played against Presby, Utah St, and Duke. Hinton was 13-17 for 196 yards in those games. Only Hinton played against Clemson, the toughest D we faced. He was 14-30 for 203 yards, 2 TDs, and 92 yards rushing.

 

[Deaconblue]

When the O-line was young and inexperienced, Hinton was pretty good at turning "run for your life" into a decent QB run for positive yards. With the mature, experienced O-line, that won't be necessary. QB runs should be a part of the playbook, but by design, not necessity. That is, QB run when the Wake play caller wants the QB run, or the read in the RPO makes that the best option.

The concern is that the heart of the RPO is the ability of the QB to read the D, and, as noted above, to hit the 5-7 yard pass either over the middle or outside with a receiver relatively free in space.

There may also be some concern about Hinton's preferences in the plays and whether that will influence his reading defenses. It seems he may have the QB run as his preferred option. That may not be good for his long term health. With Wolford last season it was pretty clear that QB run was last on the list. He would run when it was obvious that the defense was concentrating on stopping the pass and the RB run out of the RPO.

 

[bmoneydeac]

Hinton was even better against Clemson than the stats indicate. He had two or three bad drops on deep balls. I may be overlooking someone but his performance against Clemson was probably one of the two or three best they allowed.

 

[CharlotteDeac1]

Ehh, I complained often, as did others on here, that we never threw the ball more than 10 yards downfield for what seemed like years, until last year. That was primarily a product of the line being unable to protect a QB to allow any sort of deep route to develop.

Yeah maybe, I just remember us lobbing the ball up to the sidelines pretty often and the usual clawson quote “the receivers have to make plays”. That used to piss me off lol

 

[Pilchard]

This is the off season; everyone speculates about the QB as it is the most visible position.

Hinton had a rough game throwing the ball, but he had the weaker o-line and the touch rules on QBs don't play to Hinton's strengths. Wouldn't put a ton of stock behind the Spring Game numbers.

Barring injury, Hinton is starting the opener, and the job will be his to lose for the season (that said, Clawson will always play whomever gives WF the best chance to win; that will never change), but that does not mean that Newman and/or Hartman are unlikely to play in 2018.

Even with improved line, Wofford missed a game last year with injury (and IIRC, a WF QB has missed at least one game because of injury every year since Clawson started; often seems to happen before the Clemson game). Hinton is tough and shifty, but he will take hits next year, and he is not big. History says that at least one maybe two other QBs will get meaningful snaps next year. Good that Newman and Hartman appear to be viable options as one or maybe even both will be relied upon next year, even if Hinton plays lights out.

 

[PhDeac]

I'm more worried about Newman getting injured than Hinton. I really don't want to burn Hartman's redshirt.

QBs versus Clemson last year:

Total QB stats and net yards rushing
Kent State 1-5, 1 yard, 0 INT, 0 TD, 60 yards rushing
Auburn 13-24, 79 yards, 0 INT, 0 TD, -42 yards rushing
Louisville 21-42, 317 yards, 1 INT, 2 TDs, 88 yards rushing
BC 15-32, 141 yards, 2 INT, -7 yards rushing
VT 30-45, 251 yards, 2 INT, 1 TD, -8 yards rushing
WF 14-30, 203 yards, 0 INT, 2 TD, 92 yards rushing
Cuse 20-33, 278 yards, 0 INT, 3 TD, 61 yards rushing
GT 3-13, 32 yards, 0 INT, 0 TD, 23 yards rushing
State 31-50, 338 yards, 2 INT, 3 TD, 35 yards rushing
FSU 13-32, 208 yards, 1 INT, 1 TD, -26 yards rushing
Citadel 1-8, 61 yards, 2 INT, 0 TD, 5 yards rushing
SC 16-29, 126 yards, 2 INT, 1 TD, 9 yards rushing
Miami 14-29, 110 yards, 2 INT, 0 TD, 19 yards rushing
Alabama 16-24, 120 yards, 0 INT, 2 TD, 40 yards rushing

So Hinton had more rushing yards than Lamar Jackson and threw for as many TDs as Jackson and Hurts and only fewer than Dungey and Finley. He was only behind Jackson, Dungey, and Finley in total yards.

And that was his only start last season.

 

[Stan Gable]

PH's jump circle defense of Hinton would make any dukie proud. Hinton has yet to show consistency hitting screens, slants and other routine routes. Until he can get it right, the rpo offense will be compromised. Its not a slam on the kid and its not anyone calling for him to be benched. Not yet at least. This is his 4h year in the program. Time to fine tune his game.

 

[skinnydeac]

I think this years offense could look really similar to what Louisville has done with Lamar Jackson.

Jackson had a mediocre O-line and receiver group with no quality running backs. Wake has above average O-line, backs and receivers.

Hinton doesn't have Jackson's world class speed that allows him to pull away from defenders and outrun angles, but he can still juke defenders out of their shoes.

If he completes 50% + with limited picks, then this offense will be pretty nasty.

 

[Lohengrin]

I'm more worried about Newman getting injured than Hinton. I really don't want to burn Hartman's redshirt.

So Hinton had more rushing yards than Lamar Jackson and threw for as many TDs as Jackson and Hurts and only fewer than Dungey and Finley. He was only behind Jackson, Dungey, and Finley in total yards.

And that was his only start last season.

Good argument, but let's remember that before we scored at all it was 28-0 Clemson late in the second half and Clemson was substituting liberally. Stats are stats, but not all stats are equal, if you follow me.

 

[PhDeac]

Most of Clemson’s games were like that.

 

[DEACS76]

When the O-line was young and inexperienced, Hinton was pretty good at turning "run for your life" into a decent QB run for positive yards. With the mature, experienced O-line, that won't be necessary. QB runs should be a part of the playbook, but by design, not necessity. That is, QB run when the Wake play caller wants the QB run, or the read in the RPO makes that the best option.

The concern is that the heart of the RPO is the ability of the QB to read the D, and, as noted above, to hit the 5-7 yard pass either over the middle or outside with a receiver relatively free in space.

There may also be some concern about Hinton's preferences in the plays and whether that will influence his reading defenses. It seems he may have the QB run as his preferred option. That may not be good for his long term health. With Wolford last season it was pretty clear that QB run was last on the list. He would run when it was obvious that the defense was concentrating on stopping the pass and the RB run out of the RPO.

+1, Ph, with Brenden Clark coming in '19, it's OK if Hartman plays. Red shirt him and have him as a backup in '20.

 

[DeacDaddy]

PH's jump circle defense of Hinton would make any dukie proud. Hinton has yet to show consistency hitting screens, slants and other routine routes. Until he can get it right, the rpo offense will be compromised. Its not a slam on the kid and its not anyone calling for him to be benched. Not yet at least. This is his 4h year in the program. Time to fine tune his game.

That's a pretty different critique from "he can't hit high-school level passes." Unless that was sarcasm?

Hinton is going to be solid and I am very excited to see him do his thing.