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Sutton Sports Performance Center Catches Fire At Wake Forest University

Somebody needs to photoshop Manning onto Wilt holding a "kill whitey" sign instead of the 100 and we'll be headed in the right direction.
 
Since some of you have strong feelings about Martha Allman and the KAs I will play devil’s advocate.

Do we know why she was in the picture? Yes, she was the fraternity’s sweetheart. She dated one of the members.

Did she know she was going to be standing in front of a confederate flag? Don’t know.

Was what she did wrong? Yes

Was the confederate flag hurtful and disrespectful? Yes.

Was it racist? Much more complicated. By today’s standards it was. Back in the late 70’s, not so obvious to many . This seems to match her statement. She basically says that she better understands the issue now and that she now knows that what she did was wrong. I get it.

In the 1980’s the Dukes of Hazzard was a popular show and the flag was all over that mainstream show. People still made a big deal about Gone With the Wind each year on network television. Were these things wrong? Of course they were, but this wasn’t universally clear to all folks. Did the university object to the flag when it was just a few feet away from the administration building? Nope. This was also wrong.

What changed? People became more aware of how wrong and hurtful the confederate flag was and is and people changed their behavior.

The big change came when hate groups started using the flag. That was the end of the flag with mainstream people.

As for the members of the fraternity in that era, half of the membership was not from the South. Members were from New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Michigan, Ohio, Texas, California, Oklahoma, Florida (most people don’t really consider Florida southern) and others. They were just a group of guys who were in a fraternity. Most didn’t really care about Southern tradition, but they accepted it. It was wrong, but there was no intent to hurt people.

KA nationally took a stand on being respectful to all and change was implemented. Some of the leaders of this movement were folks from Wake Forest. Fact.

If you look at the KappaAlpha.org site you will see that KA is more diverse today. This doesn’t fit the narrative that some want to believe, but it is true.

And yes I was a KA from the seventies. I have grown up a lot since those days. Where my views differ from some of you is that I also did not understand how our group’s actions affected others. We never had any personal issues with any individuals that I can recall. We were too busy with school, parties and the pursuit of girls to think about social issues.

I understand now and I am sorry for that hurt that KA caused for others with the flag and the whole Old South thing.
 
From reading this thread (and looking at the tags), some think Wake is too liberal and others think it is too conservative. Does that mean Wake is doing a good job of blending both viewpoints?
 
The ones complaining about it being too liberal probably just worried their own confederate flag and/or blackface pics will leak.
 
1-2-3! Robert E Lee!
3-2-1! The South shoulda won!

Still sung at parties? Was ten years ago anyway.
 
RiskyBusiness said:
Since some of you have strong feelings about Martha Allman and the KAs I will play devil’s advocate.

Do we know why she was in the picture? Yes, she was the fraternity’s sweetheart. She dated one of the members.

Did she know she was going to be standing in front of a confederate flag? Don’t know.

Was what she did wrong? Yes

Was the confederate flag hurtful and disrespectful? Yes.

Was it racist? Much more complicated. By today’s standards it was. Back in the late 70’s, not so obvious to many . This seems to match her statement. She basically says that she better understands the issue now and that she now knows that what she did was wrong. I get it.

In the 1980’s the Dukes of Hazzard was a popular show and the flag was all over that mainstream show. People still made a big deal about Gone With the Wind each year on network television. Were these things wrong? Of course they were, but this wasn’t universally clear to all folks. Did the university object to the flag when it was just a few feet away from the administration building? Nope. This was also wrong.

What changed? People became more aware of how wrong and hurtful the confederate flag was and is and people changed their behavior.

The big change came when hate groups started using the flag. That was the end of the flag with mainstream people.

As for the members of the fraternity in that era, half of the membership was not from the South. Members were from New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Michigan, Ohio, Texas, California, Oklahoma, Florida (most people don’t really consider Florida southern) and others. They were just a group of guys who were in a fraternity. Most didn’t really care about Southern tradition, but they accepted it. It was wrong, but there was no intent to hurt people.

KA nationally took a stand on being respectful to all and change was implemented. Some of the leaders of this movement were folks from Wake Forest. Fact.

If you look at the KappaAlpha.org site you will see that KA is more diverse today. This doesn’t fit the narrative that some want to believe, but it is true.

And yes I was a KA from the seventies. I have grown up a lot since those days. Where my views differ from some of you is that I also did not understand how our group’s actions affected others. We never had any personal issues with any individuals that I can recall. We were too busy with school, parties and the pursuit of girls to think about social issues.

I understand now and I am sorry for that hurt that KA caused for others with the flag and the whole Old South thing.
Click to expand...

This is so full of shit. KAs in the 70s knew what they were doing. It wasn't just the flag. They understood they were racists and bigots against non-Christians. They knew it was wrong but didn't give a damn.

To try to sweep their overt actions under the table is totally dishonest. To say the members of KA didn't understand is total bullshit.
 
TownieDeac said:
1-2-3! Robert E Lee!
3-2-1! The South shoulda won!

Still sung at parties? Was ten years ago anyway.
Click to expand...

If they are still doing that they should stop. It was a joke back in the day that no one took seriously. It has outlived its humor.

We also used to make fun of ourselves at parties.

How many Yankees were there?
10,000

How many Rebels were there?
500

What did we do?
Charge!
 
Some Wake Students Demand Resignation of Admissions Dean Because of 37-Year Old Photo

RJKarl said:
This is so full of shit. KAs in the 70s knew what they were doing. It wasn't just the flag. They understood they were racists and bigots against non-Christians. They knew it was wrong but didn't give a damn.

To try to sweep their overt actions under the table is totally dishonest. To say the members of KA didn't understand is total bullshit.
Click to expand...

We all know that you cannot have a real discussion with RJKarl.

Everything that I said is true. The facts can be documented. I am sorry if they do not fit your narrative.

The KAs were only interested in good grades, parties and girls. We were tone deaf to social agendas. This was wrong, but there was no hate.

KA parties were open to all and some visitors were black students. I can remember two great guys who were friends with several brothers. Those guys ended up pledging Kappa Sig. You know Kappa Sig don’t you? They are the other fraternity that you said was racist.

And by the way, we had at least one Jewish member. No one cared about that either.
 
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You're so right. KAs never called anyone hanging with black students N Lover or Jews kike. It was just bunch of fun loving, misunderstood horny college students who loved everyone.

You can't say I didn't know any KAs. My first roommate pledged KA as did several other friends.

You can't deny personal events by blaming it on RJ. You can't sweep the actions of so many of the members of KA under the rug by blaming their actions on me.
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
Did you ride horses on the quad dressed up in confederate garb, RB?
Click to expand...

Not that I can recall. I think one guy wanted to do that when we delivered invitations to Old South to the ladies. Might have happened, but I doubt if anyone in my time had the resources to pull that off.

I do remember having a band party with Doug Clarke and the Hotnuts in the fraternity lounge during a beak in exams

We got away with that one, but the infamous morning mixer on a school day in the spring of 1974 got us closed down for the rest of the year. Not a good idea to do that right next to the administration building.
 
RJKarl said:
You're so right. KAs never called anyone hanging with black students N Lover or Jews kike. It was just bunch of fun loving, misunderstood horny college students who loved everyone.

You can't say I didn't know any KAs. My first roommate pledged KA as did several other friends.

You can't deny personal events by blaming it on RJ. You can't sweep the actions of so many of the members of KA under the rug by blaming their actions on me.
Click to expand...

I don’t know what did or did not happen to RJ. From what I can tell on these boards you are pretty argumentative. Maybe some people just didn’t like you. I only know what it was like when I was there.
 
RB are you suggesting that hate groups weren’t using the confederate battle flag prior to the mid 70s?
 
Some people didn't like the fact that I had friends that weren't white and that I was Jewish. I wasn't the only person who was treated like this. To try to minimize it shows a glaring lack of candor on your part.

I knew many black student who wouldn't walk by your house due to the sneers and abuse. Some would rather go out of their way to go through Reynolda Hall than the shorter path by your house and up the steps to The Quad.

Students at Wake at that time understood who the KAs were. I understand forty plus years on you want to minimalize or make excuses for it. But whitewashing what was common knowledge doesn't change it.

It's good that you are embarrassed by it, but denying this was real doesn't help anything.
 
Deacfreak07 said:
RB are you suggesting that hate groups weren’t using the confederate battle flag prior to the mid 70s?
Click to expand...

No sir, but it became more prevalent later. The first time I remember it was the racial violence that happened in Greensboro. When was that? Maybe 1979 or a little later? After that it started becoming a serious hate symbol, but it was still going strong on the Dukes of Hazzard. I don’t know of a specific time when it had to be dropped, but it had to be sometime in the 1980s for me. At some point you have to let go of the flag when you know that it has become evil.
 
The flag hasn't "become evil". It was always evil. It represents slavery and being traitors to the United States of America.
 
RiskyBusiness said:
No sir, but it became more prevalent later. The first time I remember it was the racial violence that happened in Greensboro. When was that? Maybe 1979 or a little later? After that it started becoming a serious hate symbol, but it was still going strong on the Dukes of Hazzard. I don’t know of a specific time when it had to be dropped, but it had to be sometime in the 1980s for me. At some point you have to let go of the flag when you know that it has become evil.
Click to expand...

Dear Lord.
 
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