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Manning Buyout Negotiations Have Begun

Also, no money from NCAA until June. Normally payments happen in April.
 
Ok at this point - Fuck Danny Manning if he thinks his sorry ass is the one on the food chain that needs to be paid in full and fuck over our university with all that is going on.
 
You'd think he would be willing to take a couple million a year for whatever the buyout amount is for just so all parties can move on. Certainly Wake could afford that. He must really like losing as a coach.
 
lazydeac said:
Ok at this point - Fuck Danny Manning if he thinks his sorry ass is the one on the food chain that needs to be paid in full and fuck over our university with all that is going on.
Click to expand...

I actually think this is a shitty point. Danny Manning didn't give himself a guaranteed extension that could jeopardize Wake's finances if it attempted to remove him. That was Ron Wellman. That fucker needs to be taken to task publicly for his role in this fiasco. I hope Conor and Les are reading this.

oh, and another fuck you RJKarl you lying dipshit

Any of us would take an outlandish contract extension if we could. I can't fault Manning for wanting to get paid what we are contractually obligated to pay him.
 
lazydeac said:
Ok at this point - Fuck Danny Manning if he thinks his sorry ass is the one on the food chain that needs to be paid in full and fuck over our university with all that is going on.
Click to expand...

I mean, I genuinely think he's completely unaware and clueless to the current situation and believes he's doing a good job. Ron probably told him a slew of positive things prior to signing that ridiculous (so we assume) contract. I just think mannequin is under the impression that he is doing a solid job.

Bottom Line: We're Fucked.
 
OK, trying to get this topic back on track.

Let's talk first about endowments, since that is something that has been raised. Yes, Wake has a $1B+ endowment. That doesn't mean that those funds are available to hire a coach.
First off, in general only the interest from an endowment is available to be spent, not the principal.
Second, depending upon the restrictions placed on the gift that can also affect how and when money is spent. Alot of money given to endowments are restricted to a specific purpose and can not be used for anything but that purpose. Restricted endowments generally have their pricipal held into perpetuity and only their principal can be spent and only on what they are assigned to.
There are also term endowments where money can only be spent after a period of time.
Basically unless there is endowment money in there that is specified for the athletic association and more importantly is unrestricted in terms of how it can be used by the AA, there is little money you could ever expect to see for a coaching change. Generally endowment money is given to the University for academic purposes and can only be used for that purpose.

Second, lets talk about a coaching search.
First you have to pay the coach you are trying to get rid of. The range of the current coach's contract range from an high 7 figure number to a mid 8 figure number. No matter where in the range it is that is a shit ton of money. Texas, who has alot more money in its AA than Wake, decided not to fire Smart last year because they didn't want to pay out an $11M figure and look like they will keep him again this year with a $9M buyout figure. I never assumed Currie would replace Manning after 1 year. The amount of money may simply be too high - even with booster help. Best case scenario was 1 year, but we aren't privy to what the real money situation is.

Then you get to the coaching search itself. Let's assume you have the money to buy out Manning. You have to find a new coach. Fans tend to have unrealistic expectations here. It's nice to talk about Matta or Beilein, but these are coaches who have a ton of money and a strong reputation. They don't need to coach, it's a matter if they want to coach. If they do want to coach, they don't have to take any job. They can hold out for a strong job that doesn't require a major rebuild. So even if Wake was open and the only P6 job available, a coach of that level may not be interested.
Hiring coaches has changed radically in the last 10 years. mid major coaches are much better payed than they were a decade ago. 10 yrs ago, most mid major coaches would take the first P6 job that came there way. That is no longer the case. The better mid major coaches will now wait for a P6 job that they feel is a good opportunity and match for them.

Finally right now, if you get rid of Manning, yes you can interview a coach on skype, you can give him a virtual tour of the campus and facilities. But it sounds like right now alot of coaches simply don't want to go through the process until they start to feel there is more of a return to normalcy. They don't want to think about having to move their family right now, or work apart from their family.


Now all this said, maybe Currie will hit a home run. But the odds are somewhat stacked against him. Odds would have been against him without Coronavirus (big buyout, team at the bottom of the conference, etc). Add Coronavirus to that and it basically is likely hold until the future until things return more to normal.

Just some ramblings.
 
yeah, time to change the title of this thread to "Manning Buyout Negotiations Are On Hold For One Year"
 
So, is the assumption that the Manning buy-out would drop to $12 million after next season (4 more seasons through 2024-5 at an average annual value of $3 million)?

Realize, we have been through this a zillion times, but as dopey as the decision was to extend Manning after the 2017 First Four run, what was the compulsion to commit WF to EIGHT more seasons after 2017 (I believe Manning's initial contract was for five years, which means it would've expired after the 2018-9 season with no extension). Was DM going to turn down a fully guaranteed extension if WF offered him $3 million a year through just 2021-22? Just bizarre.
 
Everything RamblinRed said is reasonable and most likely true. However, there is a school out there or maybe 3 or maybe 10 that sees opportunity in crisis and is desperately thinking of new and creative ways to improve their particular sport at their school. Some school out there is going to be bold in a way that makes other schools uncomfortable and five years from now are they are going to be holding up a conference championship trophy. It's not going to be Wake Forest because we going to follow the rest of the pack and be cautious and conservative , but it will be somebody.
 
RamblinRed said:
OK, trying to get this topic back on track.

Let's talk first about endowments, since that is something that has been raised. Yes, Wake has a $1B+ endowment. That doesn't mean that those funds are available to hire a coach.
First off, in general only the interest from an endowment is available to be spent, not the principal.
Second, depending upon the restrictions placed on the gift that can also affect how and when money is spent. Alot of money given to endowments are restricted to a specific purpose and can not be used for anything but that purpose. Restricted endowments generally have their pricipal held into perpetuity and only their principal can be spent and only on what they are assigned to.
There are also term endowments where money can only be spent after a period of time.
Basically unless there is endowment money in there that is specified for the athletic association and more importantly is unrestricted in terms of how it can be used by the AA, there is little money you could ever expect to see for a coaching change. Generally endowment money is given to the University for academic purposes and can only be used for that purpose.

Second, lets talk about a coaching search.
First you have to pay the coach you are trying to get rid of. The range of the current coach's contract range from an high 7 figure number to a mid 8 figure number. No matter where in the range it is that is a shit ton of money. Texas, who has alot more money in its AA than Wake, decided not to fire Smart last year because they didn't want to pay out an $11M figure and look like they will keep him again this year with a $9M buyout figure. I never assumed Currie would replace Manning after 1 year. The amount of money may simply be too high - even with booster help. Best case scenario was 1 year, but we aren't privy to what the real money situation is.

Then you get to the coaching search itself. Let's assume you have the money to buy out Manning. You have to find a new coach. Fans tend to have unrealistic expectations here. It's nice to talk about Matta or Beilein, but these are coaches who have a ton of money and a strong reputation. They don't need to coach, it's a matter if they want to coach. If they do want to coach, they don't have to take any job. They can hold out for a strong job that doesn't require a major rebuild. So even if Wake was open and the only P6 job available, a coach of that level may not be interested.
Hiring coaches has changed radically in the last 10 years. mid major coaches are much better payed than they were a decade ago. 10 yrs ago, most mid major coaches would take the first P6 job that came there way. That is no longer the case. The better mid major coaches will now wait for a P6 job that they feel is a good opportunity and match for them.

Finally right now, if you get rid of Manning, yes you can interview a coach on skype, you can give him a virtual tour of the campus and facilities. But it sounds like right now alot of coaches simply don't want to go through the process until they start to feel there is more of a return to normalcy. They don't want to think about having to move their family right now, or work apart from their family.


Now all this said, maybe Currie will hit a home run. But the odds are somewhat stacked against him. Odds would have been against him without Coronavirus (big buyout, team at the bottom of the conference, etc). Add Coronavirus to that and it basically is likely hold until the future until things return more to normal.

Just some ramblings.
Click to expand...

Wake doesn't need a full rebuild if everyone comes back. One or two pieces and we're on our way with a Matta or Beilein or top level coach. At Beilein's age, he's not going to want to wait a couple of years to take a new gig. Also, he accepted almost nothing to go away from the Cavs. If his intent wasn't to coach, he could have easily gotten a few million.

If Currie didn't have his hands tied, he would have loved to have fired Danny last Spring. The biggest hold up was Wellman not turning over full reins until May 1. A time when all the hot coaches had been signed and Matta still had a year on O$U's payroll.
 
Strickland33 said:
I actually think this is a shitty point. Danny Manning didn't give himself a guaranteed extension that could jeopardize Wake's finances if it attempted to remove him. That was Ron Wellman. That fucker needs to be taken to task publicly for his role in this fiasco. I hope Conor and Les are reading this.

oh, and another fuck you RJKarl you lying dipshit

Any of us would take an outlandish contract extension if we could. I can't fault Manning for wanting to get paid what we are contractually obligated to pay him.
Click to expand...

Yea I was with you until today and for some reason it just clicked how fucking ridiculous it is that he is (assuming the general schools of thought around here are true) being so stubborn about it.

I just think that millions of people are going to get fucked over in the world over the next year. We are all of a sudden living in a different world. Yes he’s technically entitled to that contract but we also thought we would be entitled to all that NCAA money. That was unforeseen.

I don’t buy the argument that Ron Wellman told him he was wonderful and he still somehow thinks he is in good standing and doing a good job. John Currie should be telling him how shitty he is ok a regular basis. If he’s just going to ignore that, then he’s just an asshole that is staying to be an asshole. Not because he thinks he’s in good standing.

It’s just getting to be unfathomable that someone would want to ride it out for the next 5 years just for the money when literally no one at the entire university wants you there. And you’re killing a proud program in a time that is quickly slipping into a time compared to the Great Depression/flu of 1918/WW2/etc. How do you go to bed at night.
 
cheeseheads12 said:
I mean, I genuinely think he's completely unaware and clueless to the current situation and believes he's doing a good job. Ron probably told him a slew of positive things prior to signing that ridiculous (so we assume) contract. I just think mannequin is under the impression that he is doing a solid job.

Bottom Line: We're Fucked.
Click to expand...

I absolutely think this is true. Seeing his team almost win at Duke last year, beating them this year, leading so many games at half, etc are to him, all signs of progress. He doesn't seem capable of realizing the reason those halftime leads are often squandered are because of him and not the players.
 
Strickland is getting desperate. Somebody please do a public service and FaceTime or Skype him. He's losing it more than usual.

Strick, maybe someday, somebody will trust you. Nah, that's not going to happen. If anyone talks to you for two minutes, they will know better.
 
SC DEAC said:
Everything RamblinRed said is reasonable and most likely true. However, there is a school out there or maybe 3 or maybe 10 that sees opportunity in crisis and is desperately thinking of new and creative ways to improve their particular sport at their school. Some school out there is going to be bold in a way that makes other schools uncomfortable and five years from now are they are going to be holding up a conference championship trophy. It's not going to be Wake Forest because we going to follow the rest of the pack and be cautious and conservative , but it will be somebody.
Click to expand...

You mean like Iona? Someone posted earlier today that UNC and Duke will be the assumed leaders and see opportunity ...

Not so sure. If we don't have a season next year, or a seriously curtailed one - Does Coach K coach again? Roy Williams is not going to go out the way he did and is younger than Coach K, but there are a lot of ACC coaches who are likely self quarantining if for no other reason than they are in an age bracket where they could be at huge risk. Famous/successful people over 70 are at a huge disadvantage in the next year if they hold any sort of position that requires public interaction... just saying.
 
How common are force majeure clauses in coaching contracts? If schools in general start hitting meltdown financial situations you'd have to think coaches and their massive contracts would be one of the first things to be eliminated.

And morbid as it may be, it's not just sports being frozen or limited access to conduct meetings that makes a coaching hire nonsensical right now - you could see entire lives shift on a dime due to key figures or their family members getting sick. I can't imagine trying to draw up a contract these days, both sides would be adding dozens of contingencies.

It'd make sense to me if the only decision being considered at the moment is whether or not to fire him without a replacement ready or to just kick the can down the road until some sense of normalcy returns to the world.
 
jaybone said:
You mean like Iona? Someone posted earlier today that UNC and Duke will be the assumed leaders and see opportunity ...

Not so sure. If we don't have a season next year, or a seriously curtailed one - Does Coach K coach again? Roy Williams is not going to go out the way he did and is younger than Coach K, but there are a lot of ACC coaches who are likely self quarantining if for no other reason than they are in an age bracket where they could be at huge risk. Famous/successful people over 70 are at a huge disadvantage in the next year if they hold any sort of position that requires public interaction... just saying.
Click to expand...

Along these lines, I think K, Roy and Boeheim may retire when the NBA CBA comes to pass in two or three years. When this happens, most of the Top 25 players will be going to the NBA or G -League. It will make recruiting much, much harder and more of a crapshoot. They will actually have to work more to get the players they want and will have a lot of misses. At their ages, it's something to think about.
 
Busy day at the office. Just catching up...

Soooo...We are all going to die horrible deaths, if we make it through COVID phase 1 alive then we will die from it a year or two from now...Anddddd Danny Manning is going to continue coaching wake basketball, given we even have a season.
 
CreamyGoodness said:
Busy day at the office. Just catching up...

Soooo...We are all going to die horrible deaths, if we make it through COVID phase 1 alive then we will die from it a year or two from now...Anddddd Danny Manning is going to continue coaching wake basketball, given we even have a season.
Click to expand...

And alone. You forgot that part.
 
RJKarl said:
Wake doesn't need a full rebuild if everyone comes back. One or two pieces and we're on our way with a Matta or Beilein or top level coach. At Beilein's age, he's not going to want to wait a couple of years to take a new gig. Also, he accepted almost nothing to go away from the Cavs. If his intent wasn't to coach, he could have easily gotten a few million.

If Currie didn't have his hands tied, he would have loved to have fired Danny last Spring. The biggest hold up was Wellman not turning over full reins until May 1. A time when all the hot coaches had been signed and Matta still had a year on O$U's payroll.
Click to expand...

I doubt many coaches would agree with your take on the job.
The last 3 years Wake has finished 14th, 13th and tied for last in the ACC. In the last 10 years it has won more than 1/3 of its conference games 1 time. That's not a program that most coaches are going to think is an easy job and not a serious rebuild.

I'm not convinced Matta will ever coach again. He had the UGa job for his taking 2 years ago and turned it down because he decided he wasn't healthy enough to be a major college HC.
 
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