Ongoing Dem Debacle Thread: Commander will kill us all

[myDeaconmyhand]

About the central issues? Absolutely.

If you have had a traumatic event in your life, you remember it.

I haven't had a sexual assault, but I've had several very traumatic events in my life and can remember them all. I wish I couldn't, but I can.

In regards this person, she knew she was going to be in the public eye. The best way for her to get through it would be to rehearse it with friends, write it down or other methods to keep herself consistent. She knew she'd be questioned.

Add to those concepts that she chose to share her story. She wasn't outed or found. She found the media.

Everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt until they prove they don't deserve it.

I truly believe she has harmed lots of other survivors.

Are you fucking serious? Memory repression of sexual trauma is goddamn common. The things you are saying are bad. This isn't political, you're just speaking terribly about this subject.

 

[RJKarl]

I disagree with all of the reason to dismiss Reade. Sexual assault comes with a heavy psychological burden for the victim. They blame them selves and live in fear that it will happen again. It is plausible that her story has been inconsistent because of the heavy psychological burden of shame and fear and that could also be why it took a very long time to report. Assault of any kind is traumatic and memories of these events are often fragmented and incomplete. Sexual assault carries even more trauma because so often the assailant is familiar to the victim this leaving the victim fearful of who will attack them next. Nothing that Reade has done falls out side the normal distribution for sexual assault victims and dismissing her claims on the basis of inconsistent stories and the time it took her to report anything shows and complete misunderstanding or disregard for assault victims and their trauma.

If she came out contemporaneously with her story and there were inconsistencies today, it would be very different. This would be understandable (and to be expected) and worthy of a benefit of the doubt. But she's changed her story over the past month.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

One of the "reasons" in that ridiculous article was Bernie's connection to Russia. Seriously. Bernie Sanders vacation to Russia in like 1980 is one of the supposed credible reasons not to believe her. Jesus.

 

[RJKarl]

Are you fucking serious? Memory repression of sexual trauma is goddamn common. The things you are saying are bad. This isn't political, you're just speaking terribly about this subject.

It is. However, she's the one who sought out the media. She has been in the public eye having worked in politics. She knew what to expect. She planned this. She knew what she would be asked.

I'm sorry, but THIS person is tough to believe. Not everyone HER.

 

[birdman]

If she came out contemporaneously with her story and there were inconsistencies today, it would be very different. This would be understandable (and to be expected) and worthy of a benefit of the doubt. But she's changed her story over the past month.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of sexual assault psychological trauma. I am not saying I believe her out right, I’m just saying her actions are not uncommon for sexual assault victims and her accusations shouldn’t be dismissed based on her behavior in the present.

 

[PhDeac]

Why do you keep demanding to know what I want? I'm not a lawyer. I don't even know what's possible. All I know is that some re-hashing of Joe's Veep private vetting isn't satisfactory.

Thank you. This is a start. You don't think the Obama campaign vetted Reade's allegations in a satisfactory manner. OK, so what would be satisfactory?

I don't want to know what you want as a lawyer. I want to know what you want as a voter, as someone who says he cares about victims of sexual assault, as someone who doesn't want a rapist in the White House.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

It is. However, she's the one who sought out the media. She has been in the public eye having worked in politics. She knew what to expect. She planned this. She knew what she would be asked.

I'm sorry, but THIS person is tough to believe. Not everyone HER.

dude, I really don't care whether or not you believe her. It's not important to me. I'm just telling you that the things you are saying about sexual assault victims (accusers) is very wrong. There is no arbitrary bar of credibility that purported victims should follow. Every person is different and every case is different, and just leave it the fuck at that.

 

[PhDeac]

dude, I really don't care whether or not you believe her. It's not important to me. I'm just telling you that the things you are saying about sexual assault victims (accusers) is very wrong. There is no arbitrary bar of credibility that purported victims should follow. Every person is different and every case is different, and just leave it the fuck at that.

You're allowed to hedge but everybody else is part of the problem when they hedge?

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

Thank you. This is a start. You don't think the Obama campaign vetted Reade's allegations in a satisfactory manner. OK, so what would be satisfactory?

I don't want to know what you want as a lawyer. I want to know what you want as a voter, as someone who says he cares about victims of sexual assault, as someone who doesn't want a rapist in the White House.

What I want as a voter is to remove the statute of limitations for rape and sexual assault. In this scenario, I want a public mock jury trial where Joe Biden would step down from the nomination if he lost and make a public apology.

 

[RJKarl]

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of sexual assault psychological trauma. I am not saying I believe her out right, I’m just saying her actions are not uncommon for sexual assault victims and her accusations shouldn’t be dismissed based on her behavior in the present.

The difference is she sought out public attention which is brave and fine. Many times people are outed.

I'm not saying not to believe anyone in this position. I'm talking only about this person.

 

[RJKarl]

What I want as a voter is to remove the statute of limitations for rape and sexual assault. In this scenario, I want a public mock jury trial where Joe Biden would step down from the nomination if he lost and make a public apology.

There can't be a fair trial if you are involved. You have already decided. At the core of it is your political hatred of Joe Biden. You have been looking for any excuse to get rid of him.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

I haven't even fucking said I believe the woman, all I said was that Democrats would be too afraid to investigate it, and the voters wouldn't care anyway.

You're allowed to hedge but everybody else is part of the problem when they hedge?

not hedging. It's hard to comprehend how antagonizing you are for someone who always pretends to be level headed.

 

[Kory]

About the central issues? Absolutely.

If you have had a traumatic event in your life, you remember it.

I haven't had a sexual assault, but I've had several very traumatic events in my life and can remember them all. I wish I couldn't, but I can.

In regards this person, she knew she was going to be in the public eye. The best way for her to get through it would be to rehearse it with friends, write it down or other methods to keep herself consistent. She knew she'd be questioned.

Add to those concepts that she chose to share her story. She wasn't outed or found. She found the media.

Everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt until they prove they don't deserve it.

I truly believe she has harmed lots of other survivors.

I just disagree.

Birdman is right on this. Posts like these show why we need to educate people who aren't victims of sexual violence about its embodied effects. There's clearly a great deal of misunderstanding about how people respond in vastly different ways to such a dehumanizing event.

Nobody escapes life without trauma. But compressing traumas together like you do here to make it easier to define is a misstep. Sexual violence - the violation of the body - has profound effects in ways that are extremely difficult (read: virtually impossible) to comprehend for those who haven't experienced it.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

I haven't even fucking said I believe the woman, all I said was that Democrats would be too afraid to investigate it, and the voters wouldn't care anyway.

There can't be a fair trial if you are involved. You have already decided. At the core of it is your political hatred of Joe Biden. You have been looking for any excuse to get rid of him.

How am I hypothetically involved in this rhetorical exercise? Am I the judge? What the fuck are you talking about? You find a way to draw up teams in every situation. We're not on teams. You're not on Biden's team, I'm not on Bernie's team, there are no teams. It's just a lady accusing Biden of rape, Biden, and then everyone else. You and me are part of "everyone else".

 

[RJKarl]

Again, it's about THIS person and her life experiences.

I've said over and over again my position is about her not a general concept for everyone.

I've been in positions where my freedom and/or life could have been taken from me without anyone ever knowing about it.

 

[Kory]

Are you responding to me or to mdmh there? I asked you pretty clearly whether you expected all sexual assault victims to present consistent stories and you answered in the affirmative. That would make it a general concept.

Birdman was right to highlight that's a fundamental misunderstanding of the psychological trauma that stems from sexual violence.

Situations where your freedom/or life could be taken from you are certainly capable of producing trauma -- and that's lamentable -- but they really aren't comparable to the potential destruction of personhood -- the violation of one's body -- that comes along from what some survivors of sexual assault tell us.

 

[RJKarl]

Are you responding to me or to mdmh there? I asked you pretty clearly whether you expected all sexual assault victims to present consistent stories and you answered in the affirmative. That would make it a general concept.

Birdman was right to highlight that's a fundamental misunderstanding of the psychological trauma that stems from sexual violence.

Situations where your freedom/or life could be taken from you are certainly capable of producing trauma -- and that's lamentable -- but they really aren't comparable to the potential destruction of personhood -- the violation of one's body -- that comes along from what some survivors of sexual assault tell us.

I've SPECIFICALLY stated MULTIPLE times I am ONLY talking about THIS person.

In fact, I have said THIS person harms others by her actions.

I am ONLY talking believing or not THIS person.

Is that clear enough?

By the way, a real threat of death or disappearance (which sexual assault would have been likely) is about as serious "destruction of personhood" as you can get.

AGAIN, I'm only talking about READE, no one else.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

Off the deep end.

Sorry if curse words offend you, but I was accused of the same, so save some of that concern for me.

Part of why this place sucks. The regular posters here say some of the meanest shit, but because they say it analytically, and they agree with the board consensus, it's fine. The minute that someone gets out of line with an emotional tone, oh now it's gone too far, sir. tsk. tsk.

Fuck that.

 

[ChrisL68]

In real life when you accuse somebody of anything how you act and the consistency of your story is all going to speak to your credibility. The way you guys have framed it basically it gives sexual assault victims a special disposition where they can pretty much say anything or do anything and still are to be believed with no qualifications whatsoever. That's a very convenient conclusion for people who want to weaponize these allegations for political purposes

 

[deaconson]

It's pretty clear that we're arguing past each other. I don't care whether or not you believe her, but what I'm not going to let you do, is dismiss my opinion about sexual assault as sour grapes about Bernie. This has duck all to do with liking Bernie or Biden. You and Ph were both wrong for making thar implication, and you deserved me chewing your asses for it.

Never go full pirate man.