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Official 2020-21 NBA Finals - Milwaukee Bucks win the NBA Championship!

i'm starting to get the feeling that the real key is in scouting the players so that you can pick good players at #15-40, rather than tanking for the crapshoot of a top 5 pick.
 
I dont know how anyone can look at Doc's postseason record, especially in closeout games, combined with the absurd talent he has always had, and not say he may not actually be that great
 
TownieDeac said:
Oh man, takes

The process worked in the sense of maximizing chances at top picks and finding value grinding up assets and turning them into more valuable assets

It didn’t work in the sense of drafting well when presented with those picks or creating a long championship window with two superstars. Palma is right, Hinkie had the roadmap but they fired him before he could execute. And anyway the Sixers are on a new coach and two+ GMs later and quite a ways removed from the start of the process, so eventually we can probably stop relitigating it. Maybe. When Embiid retires or something.
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I think that is probably fair Townie. The process worked, but the picks and signings didnt. Both can be true at same time

JuiceCrewAllStar said:
I feel like it's tough to have your best player be a big man in today's NBA
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I think this is also true Juice. I genuinely wonder whether we will see the tide ever shift back to the paint, or if it is just always going to drift further and further from hoop (especially with guys now routinely hitting 40 ft 3s)
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
I think the third expectation would be that the Process results in either a quicker rebuilding process than a traditional focus on drafting well while generally trying to win (excluding certain end-of-season tank scenarios), or it results in a longer window of contention before having to do it over again. Again I don't think it has worked. It has taken a long-ass time to get to this point, and the window was pretty short before this implosion which effectively closes it. They have to jettison Simmons at this point, which to me ends it. Embiid is still just the one lucky pick.
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I thought the whole point of the Process was tanking for several years. Open to being wrong here, but seems like a team that traditionally drafts to win could expect to succeed in the same time frame, so I don't understand the quicker rebuild expectation - unless there were sixers fans who thought the Process would guarantee a shorter window (and even now I don't understand how to reconcile that).
 
DeaconSig said:
I don't think it would be if the 2nd best player is a great guard. If the sixers had Mitchell/Booker/Beal/Murray, maybe even Fox, I think they whoop the Hawks. But when your 2nd and 3rd best players are both PFs without much ability to create their own shots, it is a problem.

I mean, the Nuggets would have had as good a shot as anyone to win the championship this year with a healthy Murray.
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yes, I'd add Middleton to Giannis to that list too

but guys good enough to be in that role are typically not #2 guys -- Murray is the best example

but generally speaking, the best teams do not fit that mold -- there are, of course, exceptions, but those have caveats: best passing big man in history or all-world defender -- plus a very strong #2 lead guard

the Sixers also had middling outside shooting -- decent percentage, but #23 in made threes
 
The best template for the process was the Sonics, getting KD/Westbrook/Harden in 3 straight drafts with a top 5 pick, plus Ibaka at 24. But for the dumbass ownership trading Harden, that team would have most likely won a title within 7 years of drafting KD. But even that template took a ton of luck, with Oden going before Durant, the Sonics being lucky/smart enough to see the value in Westbrook when not everyone did, and Thabeet going before Harden.

Given that the 89/90/04 Pistons, maybe the 2011 Mavs, and maybe the 2014 Spurs are the only teams to win a title in the past 40 years without a top 5 player, and that most of those types or players are top-5 picks, I think the process made sense.
 
Agree with whoever said it depends on how you define success.

The Process worked in the sense that they put themselves in a position to get elite players. They were able to draft or trade for Noel, Embiid, Okafor, Simmons, and Fultz between 2013 and 2017. That's 5 top 5 picks in 5 years and should've been enough opportunities to stockpile elite talent to give them a long window to win. If you're doing a normal rebuild while still trying to win, you probably aren't going to have that many top picks so close together.

The Process failed in the sense that they haven't won anything. Whether you do a normal rebuild or The Process, it won't work out if the majority of your top draft picks are busts.
 
a team's status as a free-agency destination is also an enormous factor in what method of roster construction you pursue
 
Maybe the real Process was all the arguments that were had about high draft picks being a bad thing along the way
 
So the process worked on the easy part(tanking games and racking up losses) but didn’t work on the hard part ( drafting players who can actually win games).

To continue dunking on Simmons, why aren’t his assist totals much higher? He’s the biggest PG in the league , supposedly has excellent vision, rarely shoots the ball and never shoots 3’s but somehow gets dwarfed in assists by other guards who shoot much more frequently.
 
DeacdeTejas said:
I dont know how anyone can look at Doc's postseason record, especially in closeout games, combined with the absurd talent he has always had, and not say he may not actually be that great
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Having only had this season with Doc, watching every game, I can say I am confused about what he does well. He draws up some good plays out of timeouts. But taking Ben for example, he really did not put him in a situation to succeed given his weaknesses, and he threw him under the bus after the fact.

What was his strategy with the minutes that the non-bigs (Shake, Furkan, Matisse, and Maxey) got when Danny went down? Seemingly random from game to game. What adjustments did he make to stop the high screen and roll to the lob? Why not draw up more plays for shooters not named Seth Curry? Did the Sixers have a single play designed to get an open 3 in the fourth quarter? Who knows if the Sixers will ever get a fully healthy Embiid all the way through the playoffs; he plays too hard to ever hold back, but what was Doc's load management concept for Jo?

Not trying to make excuses for what really still comes down to less than ideal roster construction this far into the build, but still a Kawhi bounce and four single digit losses away from a conference finals. Playoffs are hard. Window is still open, but need the next star in soon.
 
SC DEAC said:
So the process worked on the easy part(tanking games and racking up losses) but didn’t work on the hard part ( drafting players who can actually win games).

To continue dunking on Simmons, why aren’t his assist totals much higher? He’s the biggest PG in the league , supposedly has excellent vision, rarely shoots the ball and never shoots 3’s but somehow gets dwarfed in assists by other guards who shoot much more frequently.
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so much of the Sixers offense runs through Embiid in post-up situations -- not a good condition for gaudy PG assist numbers
 
Also I know we've covered this ground already, but Ben doesn't run the halfcourt offense. That's part of why his assist numbers are not closer to 10 a game. He might carry it up past mid court after a made basket but then he's basically handing it off and going into the paint. He pretty much just runs the break and tries to get to the hoop.
 
How has the process worked for Sacramento? They have had 9 top ten picks (5 top five) in the last 12 drafts.

How about Minnesota? They have had the #1 overall pick twice in the last six drafts. They have had top five picks 7 times since 2008.

Orlando? The have five top six picks since 2013.

OTOH, ATL is apparently one of the best young teams in the NBA. On their current roster, their are no top 3 picks. Trea was the #5 pick in the in 2018, and Hunter (who is out) was the #4 pick in 2019.

The Bucks have picked in the top 9 the NBA draft once since 2009, and that one pick was a disaster, Jabari Parker in 2014. The Greek Freak was the #15 pick in 2013 draft.

The Clippers have had one top 10 pick since 2010... Al Farouq Aminu #8 in 2010.

The Suns have had several top 5 picks over the last 10 years, and they are all busts, but Ayton: Alex Len #5 in 2013, Dragan Bender (yikes) #4 in 2016, Josh Jackson #4 in 2017. The Suns best player Booker, was the 13th pick in the 2015 draft. Mikal Bridges was the 10th pick in the 2018 draft.

Golden State never tanked and built their championship team around middle of the first round picks. Same with Toronto. There isn't historical precedent supporting that tanking works to build a power. The 76ers collapse is another example.
 
"The Process" was never that great of an idea because NBA history shows that teams who lose all the time don't win despite getting a bunch of top picks because they're bad at picking unless something miraculous happens like Lebron returning to Cleveland to play with players acquired from the Cavs' top picks.

I don't think this series would be an indictment of the process if the Sixers didn't lose to a team who executed a much more efficient turnaround from a much better situation in a much shorter period of time without racking up picks or pulling an obvious tank.

The Sixers don't really have a window and would have probably won the series if healthy and if Simmons had played well. But that gets at the problem of building around Simmons in the first place.

On another note, I think we can go ahead and say the days of scoring and assisting being different tasks for different players is over. A "pass first PG" or a "point forward" needs to be a thing of the past, at least for teams who are contending. So far 8 players have had 30+ points and 10+ assists in the playoffs a total of 15 times. The top assist men in the league are also scorers except for Draymond (who could be another model for Simmons to follow).
 
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Pilchard said:
How has the process worked for Sacramento? They have had 9 top ten picks (5 top five) in the last 12 drafts.

How about Minnesota? They have had the #1 overall pick twice in the last six drafts. They have had top five picks 7 times since 2008.

Orlando? The have five top six picks since 2013.

OTOH, ATL is apparently one of the best young teams in the NBA. On their current roster, their are no top 3 picks. Trea was the #5 pick in the in 2018, and Hunter (who is out) was the #4 pick in 2019.

The Bucks have picked in the top 9 the NBA draft once since 2009, and that one pick was a disaster, Jabari Parker in 2014. The Greek Freak was the #15 pick in 2013 draft.

The Clippers have had one top 10 pick since 2010... Al Farouq Aminu #8 in 2010.

The Suns have had several top 5 picks over the last 10 years, and they are all busts, but Ayton: Alex Len #5 in 2013, Dragan Bender (yikes) #4 in 2016, Josh Jackson #4 in 2017. The Suns best player Booker, was the 13th pick in the 2015 draft. Mikal Bridges was the 10th pick in the 2018 draft.

Golden State never tanked and built their championship team around middle of the first round picks. Same with Toronto. There isn't historical precedent supporting that tanking works to build a power. The 76ers collapse is another example.
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The Spurs got Timmy by tanking, and that worked. But that was a one-and-done tank job.
 
Okafor over Porzingis in 15
Fultz over Tatum in 17

Those are the two big misses. Embiid in 14, Simmons in 16 were both good picks, they're the best two players in those two draft classes, and were taken 3rd and 1st.

I won't speak for how poorly run Sacramento, Minnesota, Orlando, or Phoenix have been. Getting draft value is important, obviously, and few teams do it consistently well.
 
DeacdeTejas said:
I dont know how anyone can look at Doc's postseason record, especially in closeout games, combined with the absurd talent he has always had, and not say he may not actually be that great
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Doc was on the hot seat with a terrible Boston team before the front office assembled the original Big 3. He's managed to ride that wave a really long time.
 
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