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2023-24 Wake Forest Basketball Season - 21-14 (11-9) - KP#29 / NET#43

deacfan123 said:
Again, I do not care what the NCAA says. It does not feel like you made it, so in my view you did not make it. No clue on expanded tourney, will be a feel thing. Probably will feel more normal since it's not just a few team play in game. But I'm not a fan of expanding it either.
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Feelings>Facts
 
this argument happens every year

I'd like to fill out a bracket with the opportunity to predict that Wake Forest will win a game

I haven't had that opportunity since 2010 (when it was still the First Four teams, not the First 4 games)
 
I think we can all agree that losing in Dayton (again) would be an unsatisfying experience and that we'd prefer Wake to make the field of 64 over Dayton.

I'm not sure why the argument always has to be about whether or not it technically counts as the tournament. Argue that it's lame and a major bummer all you want, but there's no need to try to claim that it's not actually a part of the tournament.
 
People talk about Dayton as if the top 64 teams used to make the field, and now 68 do and the worst 8 teams have to earn a spot in the real tournament so it's not a real bid.

The NCAA could easily have looked at the fact that generally the 15's and 16's all suck and only make the tourney thanks to winning their trash conference's tournament and just said hey let's make the worst 8 have to play their way in since they clearly don't deserve to be here.

But nobody would watch that trash on TV so they dragged the worst 4 teams in but also snagged 4 bubble teams. Which means 2 of the bubble teams would have gotten at-large bids if the field hadn't been expanded.

So when you say an at-large bid for the first four "doesn't count" then you historically have to throw out every team that ever got a bid in history as one of the last 2 in. Which is dumb.

There will be like a dozen teams in the field that aren't even top 100 teams in the country, but because the NCAA has to market around the trash games a few top 40 teams get to pay the price for them. Why anyone would pile on the already shitty nature of that system and claim they didn't earn a bid is beyond me. Sure, losing in Dayton sucks and it's disappointing. You still made the tournament and earned it more than like 30% of the rest of the field did.
 
Deacfreak07 said:
I would feel a lot better about the First Four if they didn’t force you to slum it up in Ohio.
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Just wait until they expand the field to 72 or 80 and you get sent to a play-in game in Cameron Indoor! ;) They've been thrown around as a potential host for more "First Four" games in addition to Hinkle Fieldhouse, Allen Fieldhouse, the Palestra, etc....
 
DCDeac said:
People talk about Dayton as if the top 64 teams used to make the field, and now 68 do and the worst 8 teams have to earn a spot in the real tournament so it's not a real bid.

The NCAA could easily have looked at the fact that generally the 15's and 16's all suck and only make the tourney thanks to winning their trash conference's tournament and just said hey let's make the worst 8 have to play their way in since they clearly don't deserve to be here.

But nobody would watch that trash on TV so they dragged the worst 4 teams in but also snagged 4 bubble teams. Which means 2 of the bubble teams would have gotten at-large bids if the field hadn't been expanded.

So when you say an at-large bid for the first four "doesn't count" then you historically have to throw out every team that ever got a bid in history as one of the last 2 in. Which is dumb.

There will be like a dozen teams in the field that aren't even top 100 teams in the country, but because the NCAA has to market around the trash games a few top 40 teams get to pay the price for them. Why anyone would pile on the already shitty nature of that system and claim they didn't earn a bid is beyond me. Sure, losing in Dayton sucks and it's disappointing. You still made the tournament and earned it more than like 30% of the rest of the field did.
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To start: I am of the opinion that of course it counts as a bid even if it’s only half as satisfying.

That said: if the field didn’t expand by 4, the auto bids would still be auto bids. And 4 less total slots. And thus it would be the last 4 at-large teams that didn’t make the cut. The 4 Dayton teams. Not just 2 of them.
 
It's all good.

We are currently tied for 5th, or in 7th place, depending upon how you spin it.

Away records are stunning:

UNC 7-2
Duke 6-4
UVA 5-6
Syracuse 4-6
Clemson 6-5
Pitt 7-4
Wake Forest 2-9

Right below us:

NC State 4-6
FSU 4-6

Ugh.
 
The reason it doesn't "feel" like a real tourney bid is because it's called a "play-in" game and because if you lose, you never see the round of 64. Simple as that.

But getting a play-in game at this point is a victory for the season.
 
I feel like some of it comes down to the fact that you can’t even really “pick” us in your bracket in office pools, bracket contests, etc. It’s always some weird placeholder description or “Wake Forest/Colorado State” or whatever and just feels so unsatisfying.
 
Hard to argue it’s not a play-in. The Thurs/Fri games are First Round games. I’ve never seen people pick Dayton games in their brackets.
 
Haros said:
To start: I am of the opinion that of course it counts as a bid even if it’s only half as satisfying.

That said: if the field didn’t expand by 4, the auto bids would still be auto bids. And 4 less total slots. And thus it would be the last 4 at-large teams that didn’t make the cut. The 4 Dayton teams. Not just 2 of them.
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Don't bring facts to their argument.
 
None of the four Dayton games are called 'play-in' games. It's called the 'first four'. You may choose to call it whatever you want. A lot of emphasis here to call it 'play-in' or 'not counting as a bid' is because WF's coach in 2017, when WF played in the first four, is a reviled figure in WF sports. So, there is no chance that anything that happened during DM's tenure will be recognized as an achievement, that includes straining to dismiss the 2017 team as an NCAAT team.
 
DCDeac said:
People talk about Dayton as if the top 64 teams used to make the field, and now 68 do and the worst 8 teams have to earn a spot in the real tournament so it's not a real bid.

The NCAA could easily have looked at the fact that generally the 15's and 16's all suck and only make the tourney thanks to winning their trash conference's tournament and just said hey let's make the worst 8 have to play their way in since they clearly don't deserve to be here.

But nobody would watch that trash on TV so they dragged the worst 4 teams in but also snagged 4 bubble teams. Which means 2 of the bubble teams would have gotten at-large bids if the field hadn't been expanded.

So when you say an at-large bid for the first four "doesn't count" then you historically have to throw out every team that ever got a bid in history as one of the last 2 in. Which is dumb.

There will be like a dozen teams in the field that aren't even top 100 teams in the country, but because the NCAA has to market around the trash games a few top 40 teams get to pay the price for them. Why anyone would pile on the already shitty nature of that system and claim they didn't earn a bid is beyond me. Sure, losing in Dayton sucks and it's disappointing. You still made the tournament and earned it more than like 30% of the rest of the field did.
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If this was twitter, this would be deleted and marked as factually incorrect.
 
Pilchard said:
None of the four Dayton games are called 'play-in' games. It's called the 'first four'. You may choose to call it whatever you want. A lot of emphasis here to call it 'play-in' or 'not counting as a bid' is because WF's coach in 2017, when WF played in the first four, is a reviled figure in WF sports. So, there is no chance that anything that happened during DM's tenure will be recognized as an achievement, that includes straining to dismiss the 2017 team as an NCAAT team.
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The First Four games take place before the First Round because that’s how teams play into the first round of the tournament.
 
The NCAA says that you are in the NCAA Tournament if you play in the First Four. It goes into the record books as a tournament appearance, you put it on your banner in your coliseum. It's a tournament berth.

It's literally not an opinion - it's a fact that the First Four is part of the NCAA Tournament. If you THINK that it isn't, then that's fine, but you are 100% incorrect haha.

I am admittedly getting sucked into this stupid argument, but this isn't an opinion topic. There is a correct answer and an incorrect answer set forth by the organization who runs the event.
 
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