2020 Democratic Presidential Primary

[PhDeac]

You're constructing a straw man argument here. Nobody here is suggesting that she needs to be uncritically believed. "Believe women" in its 21st century meaning refers specifically to using institutional levers such as the media and the legal system to make sure that serial rapists like Harvey Weinstein aren't allowed to use those levers to bully women into silence. Nobody is advocating for uncritically believing women and even that suggestion just fucking sucks. The Emmitt Till comment is true, but bringing it up in this instance is shameful, man. Joe Biden is arguably the second most powerful white man in the country. He's in the position to become the most powerful white man in the country. Invoking lynching rhetoric is Trump apologist-level mental gymnastics.

So if you're not advocating for uncritically believing Reade, we don't disagree. What are you arguing about? What do you think should happen next? Should Biden drop out?

 

[Robert M. Pirsig]

Ranked choice is fine to a point, but the end result is not satisfying. The vast majority of voters get a second or third choice they're meh about.

This is a huge assumption and one I'd argue is tinted by the hegemony of the current winner-takes-all system. It's possible to be enthusiastic about (and even want to vote for) multiple candidates!

 

[BillBrasky]

Error

 

[RJKarl]

Do you actually think that? A lot more black men in jail than dead from gun violence.

To say that Biden intentionally put black innocent black men in jail is false. Or to think, the times haven't changed and he has stayed the same is also wrong. To portray him as you are is telling less than half of the story.

If you and others do this publicly, you will be driving the black vote and helping Trump. It really is that simple.

 

[Strickland33]

Oh yeah I'm taking shots as the faux progressives too. Way too many Bernie supporters that haven't spent a day of their lives interacting with people of color. That being said it shouldn't go unnoticed that most young notable progressives who are POC are Bernie backers. His economic policies, which are truly the only thing that matter on a macro level when it comes to poverty reduction, would do far more to improve the lives of minorities born into that situation than anything coming out of the Clinton/Obama/Biden wing.

I'm not sure why Ph has decided to die on this hill when available data suggests that young black voters are pretty equally split between Biden and Sanders, and other POC groups, particularly younger POCs, are majority Sanders supporters.

The story in the available data is age not race. Older people turn out; younger people don't. Older people overwhelmingly support Biden and moderate candidates more generally. They did in 2008 when Obama was running, too, so it's not a problem that's unique to Sanders. The difference is that Obama campaign was 100000000000x better than the Sanders campaign at getting those young voters to show up.

 

[BillBrasky]

I'm not sure why Ph has decided to die on this hill when available data suggests that young black voters are pretty equally split between Biden and Sanders, and other POC groups, particularly younger POCs, are majority Sanders supporters.

The story in the available data is age not race. Older people turn out; younger people don't. Older people overwhelmingly support Biden and moderate candidates more generally. They did in 2008 when Obama was running, too, so it's not a problem that's unique to Sanders. The difference is that Obama campaign was 100000000000x better than the Sanders campaign at getting those young voters to show up.

Sadly most older establishment Dems (white or non-white) are far more concerned about protecting their legacy and keeping their wealth than improving the lives of people younger than them.

 

[Strickland33]

So if you're not advocating for uncritically believing Reade, we don't disagree. What are you arguing about? What do you think should happen next? Should Biden drop out?

I'm not the one suggesting that this is a conspiracy by the Sanders campaign (you) and Russia (ChrisL). I think that the press should report this story, get some facts together, and go from there. I don't have a crystal ball. I think you and others implicitly dismissing the story (as you did a few pages ago) is the real problem here because it makes getting at the truth and believing women into a partisan issue.

 

[TownieDeac]

"Believe Women" was always a problematic overly simplistic slogan that treats women as pure damsels in distress rather than regular people, some of whom are truthful and some of whom are not. In fact, "Believe Women" plays into the Republican argument that women's allegations are just used to take down powerful men in the court of public opinion. It also ignores a long history of devious white women accusing innocent black men of rape and sexual assault. "Believe Women" got Emmitt Till killed.

All claims need to be evaluated on their own merits and get the media coverage and fact finding efforts they deserve. I agreed that with Strick that "Reade deserves to be heard. Full stop." But I don't believe she needs to be uncritically believed. If a woman came out and claimed Bernie sexually harassed her, they'd claim it was a plot by the Dem establishment.

There are a lot of bad arguments in here Ph.

“Believe women” is not a slogan that comes from politics, its origins are from sexual assault survivor support organizations. Its origins predate MeToo, and without organizing from sexual assault survivors convincing women that they should come forward and men to believe them when they do, we wouldn’t have made the progress we have. Believe women as a slogan doesn’t mean jail anyone accused of sexual assault any more than Black Lives Matter means other lives don’t. It’s the subtext that makes the slogan work, because for too long people by default did not believe women, because the power structure protects the powerful. We’re all in agreement that claims should be evaluated on their merit. It’s clear to me you’re determining merit based on who the accused is and what he represents and what her motive seems to be to you.

 

[Strickland33]

Sadly most older establishment Dems (white or non-white) are far more concerned about protecting their legacy and keeping their wealth than improving the lives of people younger than them.

I mean, we can charitably read their intentions too. I'm sympathetic to the claim that older black voters don't trust Sanders. I wouldn't trust Sanders, either, if I was an old black voter in South Carolina. They have seen plenty of white progressives promise the world and their situations are largely unimproved. It's on Sanders that he didn't expand his campaign apparatus to do more organization and outreach in black communities.

That being said, it's true that older folks just kind of lose sight of the fact that the younger generations will inherit the mess that they made. It's either selfishness, as you suggest, or its just myopia that comes from probably not being around younger generations outside of family as folks age. I think either are perfectly good hypotheses about why older folks overwhelmingly prefer moderate (and older) candidates vs. progressive young candidates.

 

[BillBrasky]

Sometimes I wonder if a second Trump term might be worth it if destroys the two party system, or at least recalibrated both parties. Maybe we need to hit rock bottom. Because our current Big Labor owned model will never allow for true economic justice.

Only problem is that I can't guarantee that so I guess I'll vote for Biden.

 

[PhDeac]

This is a huge assumption and one I'd argue is tinted by the hegemony of the current winner-takes-all system. It's possible to be enthusiastic about (and even want to vote for) multiple candidates!

It's certainly possible. I'm just saying a multi-stage primary would get people to a point where they're more enthusiastic about the nominee.

In both systems, everyone gets to vote for their candidate at least once. That's a huge advantage compared to the current system.

In a multi-stage primary (at least my system), if your candidate doesn't get 5%, you have a month or two to affirmatively choose another candidate. That allows someone to accept their candidate's defeat and then adjust their support accordingly. That's the difference between a new top choice and a backup plan. People will be more excited about that new top choice than an afterthought.

Right now, in an ordinary year, we would be down to a Final Four made up of teams we've followed through four prior games. Most people may have had a favorite team in the first round who didn't make it through. But they had time to adjust and by the Final Four, they have a favorite team they want to win. A multi-stage primary duplicates a playoff about as best as you can in an election.

 

[ChrisL68]

I'm not the one suggesting that this is a conspiracy by the Sanders campaign (you) and Russia (ChrisL). I think that the press should report this story, get some facts together, and go from there. I don't have a crystal ball. I think you and others implicitly dismissing the story (as you did a few pages ago) is the real problem here because it makes getting at the truth and believing women into a partisan issue.

I'm not suggesting that it's a conspiracy by Russia I'm just pointing out that she has multiple blog posts including one in Russian where she talks very positive terms about Vladimir Putin. You can draw your own conclusions how that would impact her motivations.

Her writing these blogs are much more independently verifiable than her allegations, yet that is the conspiracy and her allegations are to be deemed credible even though she changed them from less than a year ago?

 

[PhDeac]

I'm not the one suggesting that this is a conspiracy by the Sanders campaign (you) and Russia (ChrisL). I think that the press should report this story, get some facts together, and go from there. I don't have a crystal ball. I think you and others implicitly dismissing the story (as you did a few pages ago) is the real problem here because it makes getting at the truth and believing women into a partisan issue.

You've posted multiple links to press stories about this. Clearly you don't think that's enough.

There are a lot of bad arguments in here Ph.

“Believe women” is not a slogan that comes from politics, its origins are from sexual assault survivor support organizations. Its origins predate MeToo, and without organizing from sexual assault survivors convincing women that they should come forward and men to believe them when they do, we wouldn’t have made the progress we have. Believe women as a slogan doesn’t mean jail anyone accused of sexual assault any more than Black Lives Matter means other lives don’t. It’s the subtext that makes the slogan work, because for too long people by default did not believe women, because the power structure protects the powerful. We’re all in agreement that claims should be evaluated on their merit. It’s clear to me you’re determining merit based on who the accused is and what he represents and what her motive seems to be to you.

Woof. Black Lives Matter means that black lives matter. But Believe Women doesn't mean believe women? And I need some subtext to understand it?

I mean, we can charitably read their intentions too. I'm sympathetic to the claim that older black voters don't trust Sanders. I wouldn't trust Sanders, either, if I was an old black voter in South Carolina. They have seen plenty of white progressives promise the world and their situations are largely unimproved. It's on Sanders that he didn't expand his campaign apparatus to do more organization and outreach in black communities.

That being said, it's true that older folks just kind of lose sight of the fact that the younger generations will inherit the mess that they made. It's either selfishness, as you suggest, or its just myopia that comes from probably not being around younger generations outside of family as folks age. I think either are perfectly good hypotheses about why older folks overwhelmingly prefer moderate (and older) candidates vs. progressive young candidates.

This argument is true if you're talking about old white voters. But you're talking about old black voters who actually did help initiate change when they were younger to disrupt an evil legacy that was left to them. They don't want to leave four more years of Trump to their children or grandchildren.

Meanwhile, we've got a young white guy here in Brasky entertaining whether or not we'd be better off because four years of Trump could destroy the party system.

 

[TownieDeac]

To say that Biden intentionally put black innocent black men in jail is false. Or to think, the times haven't changed and he has stayed the same is also wrong. To portray him as you are is telling less than half of the story.

If you and others do this publicly, you will be driving the black vote and helping Trump. It really is that simple.

I'm not doing this publicly. It is a privately held belief. And to be clear I don't think Biden intentionally put anyone innocent in prison. I do think the crime bill is the single greatest driver of black income inequality in the 21st century, and I think overcrowded prisons, private prisons, mandatory minimums, and overcharged nonviolent drug charges are stains on his public record. To pivot on that and the Iraq war is good, but there are and have been candidates who weren't so brazenly wrong for so long.

 

[TownieDeac]

Woof. Black Lives Matter means that black lives matter. But Believe Women doesn't mean believe women? And I need some subtext to understand it?

No, BLM means BLM and BW means BW.

 

[BillBrasky]

This argument is true if you're talking about old white voters. But you're talking about old black voters who actually did help initiate change when they were younger to disrupt an evil legacy that was left to them. They don't want to leave four more years of Trump to their children or grandchildren.

Meanwhile, we've got a young white guy here in Brasky entertaining whether or not we'd be better off because four years of Trump could destroy the party system.

But what are they leaving to their grandchildren and great-grandchildren? Is it any better than what their children had 30-40 years ago? Is it worse?

I totally understand the viewpoint you are presenting about older black voters but voting for the status quo Democrat is going to do nothing to improve the lives of their younger family members.

 

[Jamison2Carter]

There are a lot of bad arguments in here Ph.

“Believe women” is not a slogan that comes from politics, its origins are from sexual assault survivor support organizations. Its origins predate MeToo, and without organizing from sexual assault survivors convincing women that they should come forward and men to believe them when they do, we wouldn’t have made the progress we have. Believe women as a slogan doesn’t mean jail anyone accused of sexual assault any more than Black Lives Matter means other lives don’t. It’s the subtext that makes the slogan work, because for too long people by default did not believe women, because the power structure protects the powerful. We’re all in agreement that claims should be evaluated on their merit. It’s clear to me you’re determining merit based on who the accused is and what he represents and what her motive seems to be to you.

Based on what we know now - the Biden accuser does not appear to be credible. And I say that as someone that has spent their entire career as a prosecutor.

And another thing that works in Biden's favor, frankly, is that his weird, creepy touching is often in full public view and on camera, repeatedly. It's suggestive of the fact that that said touching reflects no prurient interest on his part.

 

[TownieDeac]

Based on what we know now - the Biden accuser does not appear to be credible. And I say that as someone that has spent their entire career as a prosecutor.

And another thing that works in Biden's favor, frankly, is that his weird, creepy touching is often in full public view and on camera, repeatedly. It's suggestive of the fact that that said touching reflects no prurient interest on his part.

Far better arguments, but the end result of them are still "this guy has a long career of weird public touching"

I guess if Tom Brady can open mouth kiss his children Joe Biden can just be uncomfortable grandpa

 

[RJKarl]

I'm not doing this publicly. It is a privately held belief. And to be clear I don't think Biden intentionally put anyone innocent in prison. I do think the crime bill is the single greatest driver of black income inequality in the 21st century, and I think overcrowded prisons, private prisons, mandatory minimums, and overcharged nonviolent drug charges are stains on his public record. To pivot on that and the Iraq war is good, but there are and have been candidates who weren't so brazenly wrong for so long.

Lawyers have a saying, "Bad cases make bad law."

In the 90s, there was rampant and growing crime. They made a horrible bill that went way too far. It was obvious back then that crack vs. powder penalties were immoral, but many didn't get it. To them cocaine is cocaine and it isn't. Biden and most of the others didn't see this as a bill to imprison people of color just drug dealers.

If any black or Hispanic person was moving the weight Dr. Larry Lavin was and bolted from capture, they would have gotten life not fifteen years. But Larry was a Penn grad and dentist. He was white and rich without coke. Having no violence anywhere around him was probably their rationale to let someone who brought it in by the planeload off that easy. Theoretically, he gave back millions of dollars. It was allegedly all of his money, but I seriously doubt it.

As bad as that bill was, it also allowed for the assault weapon ban and Violence Against Women act to pass.

As to the Iraq War (for Brasky- which I was the board's first and most vocal opponent of), you should give some of the senators a small pass on it. To them, it was inconceivable that any POTUS would personally lie to create a war of choice. This was especially true for those who were on more active committees. They knew the evils of war and had too much trust.

They should have known better but were naive.

It's not as clear cut as many want to make it.

 

[TownieDeac]

I do give some of the senators a small pass on it. I give Bernie Sanders a great deal of credit for voting against it. What I can't abide is Biden's cheerleading of the war.

Plus Biden isn't even using the naivete argument now (which would be a real challenge because of his actions). He's claiming he led things the way he did so we'd be safer, and because the GOP ideas were more bloodthirsty and worse.