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A college degree is a lousy investment

tiltdeac said:
Hate is strong. But means testing generally creates big administrative burdens/complexity that result in lower take up of benefits, and there are almost always big benefit cliffs that create really high marginal tax rates on lower income folks. But politically, they are big winners.

I'd much rather universal programs (UBI, child allowance, etc) and then make it up on back end with taxes. But I think now that's politically a non starter, unfortunately.
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i understand line 1

for line 2, isn't that still means testing just changing the timing of it? perhaps means testing by definition means it's a proactive measure
 
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BiffTannen said:
What was your collateral for that student loan ? High school diploma ? A promise to work for the lender or in public/military service ?
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Does it matter? Student loans can't be discharged, so no matter what you are stuck with them even if you don't graduate. If the point is for the government to give students access to educational advancement that they wouldn't have had otherwise, then there is no need for the interest rates to be as high as they are. My wife didnt have a co-signer and she may as well have put college on a credit card.
 
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DeaconCav06 said:
My only issue with this program is that it’s only federal loans that qualify.

My wife and I did the fiscally responsible thing and refinanced our loans using a single lower interest loan. That would disqualify us.
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This is a legitimately good critique.

Agree we need supply side reform, too

But you gotta start somewhere. And this is a good start.

Lots of stuff being mentioned in the press around the policy that haven’t been discussed on here. Like interest rate caps and payments linked to affordability criteria.
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
i understand line 1

for line 2, isn't that still means testing just changing the timing of it?
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They theoretically could be in a perfect world. But I think because of line 1 the end result is very different. Putting aside the benefit cliff problem (which I think is also a big issue), in traditional means testing the administrative hoops that you have to jump through mean a bunch of lower income people miss out. In other words, the people who fall through the cracks are the ones who need the benefit the most. With universal programs and taxation on the back end (so keeping revenue neutral), you could still have mistakes of course, but I think the mistakes would be richer people dodging the taxes, which is far more palatable to me, and hopefully easier to correct with tax design/IRS funding.
 
I take this plan as an admission that we should (but don't) have a better system of higher education that is better/more collectively financed and available. This is just an easier step to take in the moment and kind of fulfills a campaign promise.
 
ConnorEl said:
I take this plan as an admission that we should (but don't) have a better system of higher education that is better/more collectively financed and available. This is just an easier step to take in the moment and kind of fulfills a campaign promise.
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Agreed.
 
What's hilarious is that y'all probably claimed the Mortgage Interest Deduction, and I'll never make enough money to own a home.

Who paid for that shit?
 
TimmyClutch said:
Does it matter? Student loans can't be discharged, so no matter what you are stuck with them even if you don't graduate. If the point is for the government to give students access to educational advancement that they wouldn't have had otherwise, then there is no need for the interest rates to be as high as they are. My wife didnt have a co-signer and she may as well have put college on a credit card.
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Yep. I paid off my unsubsidized loans because they accrued a stupid amount of interest compared to the principle (and the rate was adjustable, always seemingly going up). That comprised the majority of my loans and was extremely exploitative considering the fact that the interest accrued while I was in school. I took out $20k and ended up paying almost $40k. To do so, I had to work a second job and liquidate my savings, but it was worth it because that amount of debt would have made life after graduation extremely difficult for somebody in my field.

Biden's policy will pay off my subsidized government loans, which have fairly high interest rates, but that didn't accrue interest while I was still in school. It will allow me to be debt free for the first time in my adult life. I recently graduated, so all of this is such a relief (pun intended) after the economic precarity of graduate school.
 
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Strickland33 said:
cry more, biff
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Seriously. Higher education costs mostly serve as a class barrier in this country, and I believe that’s what drives most of the resentment towards student loan borrowers. Just look at how all these douchebags condescendingly encourage people to become truck drivers and plumbers instead of taking on loans for a 4 year degree, same douchey resentful mindset follows towards the people who take on loans for the degree and don’t find adequate pay to manage the loan debt. It is no coincidence that their viewpoint is that the only people deserving of a college education are those whose families can pay for it up front, or those whose professions can pay for it immediately after. Imagine the logic of believing that your parents wealth entitles you a professional/social accreditation, but the governments wealth does not.
 
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Something demonstrably good is being done, and so many people feel the need to respond like petulant toddlers. "Why aren't I getting anything?""Why isn't this about me?"

Because you are not the Protagonist of the Universe. Good things can and should happen for others.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Seriously. Higher education costs mostly serve as a class barrier in this country, and I believe that’s what drives most of the resentment towards student loan borrowers. Just look at how all these douchebags condescendingly encourage people to become truck drivers and plumbers instead of taking on loans for a 4 year degree, same douchey resentful mindset follows towards the people who take on loans for the degree and don’t find adequate pay to manage the loan debt. It is no coincidence that their viewpoint is that the only people deserving of a college education are those whose families can pay for it up front, or those whose professions can pay for it immediately after. Imagine the logic of believing that your parents wealth entitles you a professional/social accreditation, but the governments wealth does not.
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Are you somehow under the impression that you're the only person here who borrowed money to go to school?
 
BiffTannen said:
Now imagine that instead of the government receiving the $10,000 they were supposed to, they just tell me and you to send them an extra $10,000. The government isn't going to contract because they didn't receive these money owed. And, money that goes into a domestic federal program goes into our broader economy.

These people borrowed the money under the pretense that they would pay it back, to you and me. You can be pissed at government spending on any number of things -- the military, welfare, highway building, whatever . . . and still be pissed about a program that forgives loans and turns them into grants.
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Now do PPP loan forgiveness.

As a taxpayer, I want my money back. It was a loan, not a gift.

Am I doing this right?
 
TimmyClutch said:
Something demonstrably good is being done, and so many people feel the need to respond like petulant toddlers. "Why aren't I getting anything?""Why isn't this about me?"

Because you are not the Protagonist of the Universe. Good things can and should happen for others.
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Yep

The last couple of pages of this thread is a solid litmus test on who’s a good person and who’s not. Who should go to heaven or hell, if either actually existed.

The results are unsurprising.
 
No one's even talking about the Employee Retention Credit. Basically just a $20k gift, per employee, to every small business owner who had a decrease in revenue from the pandemic. Doesn't matter if they laid off 20 people or not, they still get $20k, per employee for all the people who stayed.

Between my two companies and roughly 80-100 employees, worked out to about $1.3 million.
 
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