"Act of Terror"- Libya

[deacvision7]

Nobody is really truly upset about the dealing of the attacks, in a record of almost 4 years of being president its a "meh" moment that is being spotlighted by false rage simply as a talking point because of the election. Democrats want you to think no big deal and move on, Republicans want you to think it is the second coming of 9/11, both in hopes of swinging someone that hasn't been paying attention to their camp. It really is pathetic from both sides. If you want to be really enraged lets talk about Afghanistan and the number of troops that continue to be killed over there and how we should get the hell out. Yeah that can't be a talking point because both sides want to continue that clusterfuck.

We should have been out of Afghanistan 9 months ago if not sooner. If the fucks don't want us there...then why are we leaving our brave men and women there to be picked off one by one? It is abhorrent.

 

[ArlingtonDeac]

I think Romney will clean up the argument and focus on the correct items, which are legitimate questions. And he will hammer away on them.

The problem for Romney is that you can easily craft a response to any Libya "what did they know when" attack angle with something like this: "Governor Romney has to understand that as president [always a killer for an incumbent], you have to deal with hundreds of foreign policy situations that are fluid and constantly evolving. Government Romney has no experience with this type of governing, other than making campaign speeches based on what he reads in the media. That was clear when he attacked my administration before we'd even identified the victims of the terror attack. As president [Obama can't say this enough during a foreign policy debate] I do this every single day. For example, this is similar to when I green-lighted the mission to kill bin Laden [he cannot say this enough either]...."

I don't see this topic as winner for Romney in a debate because he gaffed by condemning Obama too early after the attack, then fumbled his lines in the last debate, getting hung up on meaningless semantics. Obama can hit back effectively here, IMO. But I think we'll all find out next round, as I think Romney incorrectly thinks this incident is a winner. We'll see. IMO, Romney should stick to the red meat simplicity of "I unquestionably support Israel, hate Islam, and want to attack Iran," and "Obama is selling the US to China," because at least those sentiments have traction. This Libya incident is fool's gold.

 

[deacvision7]

Romney is a foreign policy novice and it shows

 

[jhmd2000]

We should have been out of Afghanistan 9 months ago if not sooner. If the fucks don't want us there...then why are we leaving our brave men and women there to be picked off one by one? It is abhorrent.

Agree. We need to have an air base where we can continue to wreck shop on d-bags from the air, but they can pave their own roads, build their own schools and drill their own wells. When they can't figure out how to do it, send them a picture of an American girl sitting a desk in a school reading a science textbook drinking clean water. Suck it, Khalid.

I'm a big believer in the "Predators without Borders" program we have running. We have to have a base to keep that going. Construct a supermax "Fortress America" and let the rest of the country sort itself out.

 

[Tin Cup]

The problem for Romney is that you can easily craft a response to any Libya "what did they know when" attack angle with something like this: "Governor Romney has to understand that as president [always a killer for an incumbent], you have to deal with hundreds of foreign policy situations that are fluid and constantly evolving. Government Romney has no experience with this type of governing, other than making campaign speeches based on what he reads in the media. That was clear when he attacked my administration before we'd even identified the victims of the terror attack. As president [Obama can't say this enough during a foreign policy debate] I do this every single day. For example, this is similar to when I green-lighted the mission to kill bin Laden [he cannot say this enough either]...."

I don't see this topic as winner for Romney in a debate because he gaffed by condemning Obama too early after the attack, then fumbled his lines in the last debate, getting hung up on meaningless semantics. Obama can hit back effectively here, IMO. But I think we'll all find out next round, as I think Romney incorrectly thinks this incident is a winner. We'll see. IMO, Romney should stick to the red meat simplicity of "I unquestionably support Israel, hate Islam, and want to attack Iran," and "Obama is selling the US to China," because at least those sentiments have traction. This Libya incident is fool's gold.

"If it is a fluid situation then why did the President make X amount of statements, send Susan Rice onto 5 Sunday talk shows, and have X amount of members of his Administration making the claim that the terrorist attack on our Embassy was a result of protests over the internet video? Either he knew that the internet video was untrue and lied to the American public and the rest of the world, or he didn't actually know the cause of the attack and therefore should have stayed quiet on its origin until he did know. Either way, he was irresponsible at best and untruthful at worst. "

 

[Shooshmoo]

"If it is a fluid situation then why did the President make X amount of statements, send Susan Rice onto 5 Sunday talk shows, and have X amount of members of his Administration making the claim that the terrorist attack on our Embassy was a result of protests over the internet video? Either he knew that the internet video was untrue and lied to the American public and the rest of the world, or he didn't actually know the cause of the attack and therefore should have stayed quiet on its origin until he did know."

Seriously dude, all you have to do is ago back a couple of pages where all of the crap you just posted was debunked.

 

[deacvision7]

Agree. We need to have an air base where we can continue to wreck shop on d-bags from the air, but they can pave their own roads, build their own schools and drill their own wells. When they can't figure out how to do it, send them a picture of an American girl sitting a desk in a school reading a science textbook drinking clean water. Suck it, Khalid.

I'm a big believer in the "Predators without Borders" program we have running. We have to have a base to keep that going. Construct a supermax "Fortress America" and let the rest of the country sort itself out.

They can pave their own roads build their own school..... but you want to reserve the right to bombing the shit out of them. At least the bombs will give them a head start for them to drill their own wells!

1 out of 3 is pretty good in baseball.

 

[ArlingtonDeac]

"If it is a fluid situation then why did the President make X amount of statements, send Susan Rice onto 5 Sunday talk shows, and have X amount of members of his Administration making the claim that the terrorist attack on our Embassy was a result of protests over the internet video? Either he knew that the internet video was untrue and lied to the American public and the rest of the world, or he didn't actually know the cause of the attack and therefore should have stayed quiet on its origin until he did know. Either way, he was irresponsible at best and untruthful at worst. "

Much better line of attack, but it's nothing particularly difficult to deal with. This isn't a subject Romney can use to much advantage, because in the end, at worst Obama is guilty of speaking too soon and then coming to the proper conclusion later, and disclosing that fact. That's not exactly a "there were no WMDs" type headache. It's a triviality or parsing statements.

"My administration has tried to keep the public apprised of our evolving understanding of the Benghazi terror attack, as best we could, with the information that we have had at hand. From the beginning, reliable sources indicated, and continue to indicate, that anger over the video may have contributed to the timing of the attack on the Libyan consulate, as it did, simultaneously, in Egypt. There were also initial, unsubstantiated indications that the attack might have been a preplanned act of terrorism. We needed to acquire firm evidence establishing that fact before making such an accusation. As the state department learned more, and hard evidence became available, we shared it with the public, as we will always do under my administration. I'll make no apologies for trying to keep the American people informed during such a tragic event, but take full responsibility for any inaccurate information that may have been given. As we learned more through a professional and thorough investigation, we came to understand that our initial assumptions were incomplete, and that our fears of a preplanned attack were accurate. The investigation is ongoing, and those responsible will be brought to justice. I have moved drones into the region with the full cooperation of the Libyan government. We will hunt down those responsible.

I can't know everything, but as President I will always try to keep the public as informed as possible on the issues that touch our lives. Sometimes, that may lead to information being distributed that turns out later to be inaccurate or incomplete, and we will admit as much, as we did here. But I'd much rather have a policy of open disclosure to the American people regarding foreign policy than the closed walls of the previous administration. Also, I killed bin Laden. Mittens straps his dog to the roof of his car."

 

[Complacent Deac]

MR blew that so badly when had plenty of ammo (UN speech; 5 tv shows by Rice; Hilary; that letter asking BO for help prior to the murders) and now, instead RJKarl is 100% right, MR needs to stay away or Obama will bust him on this in the next debate.

Romney went overboard, acted like an angry jerk much of the night and probably lost his lead in the polls. MR must have been (inappropriately) angry from watching a replay of Biden acting like a complete lunatic, with condescending smirks (not laughs) last debate with moderator Raddatz and Biden constantly interrupting Ryan, then MR overcompensates by interrupting the freakin' President and the moderator all night last night - terrible tactic - and it cost him a whole lot imo.

I think Romney will clean up the argument and focus on the correct items, which are legitimate questions. And he will hammer away on them.

 

[jhmd2000]

MR blew that so badly when had plenty of ammo (UN speech; 5 tv shows by Rice; Hilary; that letter asking BO for help prior to the murders) and now, instead RJKarl is 100% right, MR needs to stay away or Obama will bust him on this in the next debate.

Romney went overboard, acted like an angry jerk much of the night and probably lost his lead in the polls. MR must have been (inappropriately) angry from watching a replay of Biden acting like a complete lunatic, with condescending smirks (not laughs) last debate with moderator Raddatz and Biden constantly interrupting Ryan, then MR overcompensates by interrupting the freakin' President and the moderator all night last night - terrible tactic - and it cost him a whole lot imo.

True. There are some things that Dems can do that Republicans just can't get away with. Biden was 100x the jerk than Romney was...but when Biden does he's being "tough". When Romney does it, he's a bully.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

True. There are some things that Dems can do that Republicans just can't get away with. Biden was 100x the jerk than Romney was...but when Biden does he's being "tough". When Romney does it, he's a bully.

That's because Dems are usually such spineless dweebs afraid of offending anyone that when they actually DO stand up for themselves, we can't be mad. Just proud!

 

[DeaconSig]

True. There are some things that Dems can do that Republicans just can't get away with. Biden was 100x the jerk than Romney was...but when Biden does he's being "tough". When Romney does it, he's a bully.

That's the difference between being Vice President and the nominee for the head of the free world.

 

[jhmd2000]

That's the difference between being Vice President and the nominee for the head of the free world.

Hey, any job big enough for Sarah Pali...., oh, gotta go. Phone's for me.

 

[DeacLaw05]

Much better line of attack, but it's nothing particularly difficult to deal with. This isn't a subject Romney can use to much advantage, because in the end, at worst Obama is guilty of speaking too soon and then coming the the proper conclusion later, and disclosing that fact. That's not exactly a "there were no WMDs" type headache. It's a triviality or parsing statements.

"My administration has tried to keep the public apprised of our evolving understanding of the Benghazi terror attack, as best we could, with the information that we have had at hand. From the beginning, reliable sources indicated, and continue to indicate, that anger over the video may have contributed to the timing of the attack on the Libyan consulate, as it did, simultaneously, in Egypt. There were also initial, unsubstantiated indications that the attack might have been a preplanned act of terrorism. We needed to acquire firm evidence establishing that fact before making such an accusation. As the state department learned more, and hard evidence became available, we shared it with the public, as we will always do under my administration. I'll make no apologies for trying to keep the American people informed during such a tragic event, but take full responsibility for any inaccurate information that may have been given. As we learned more through a professional and thorough investigation, we came to understand that our initial assumptions were incomplete, and that our fears of a preplanned attack were accurate. The investigation is ongoing, and those responsible will be brought to justice. I have moved drones into the region with the full cooperation of the Libyan government. We will hunt down those responsible.

I can't know everything, but as President I will always try to keep the public as informed as possible on the issues that touch our lives. Sometimes, that may lead to information being distributed that turns out later to be inaccurate or incomplete, and we will admit as much, as we did here. But I'd much rather have a policy of open disclosure to the American people regarding foreign policy than the closed walls of the previous administration. Also, I killed bin Laden. Mittens straps his dog to the roof of his car."

Not a bad attempt at rationalizing this situation, Arlington, but I can't recall seeing or hearing of a single piece of evidence that would substantiate this claim, and certainly nothing to suggest that this was still a valid conclusion that could be drawn on September 16 (when Susan Rice went on the talk shows) or September 18 (when Obama went on The View and failed to give a yes-or-no answer to Joy Behar's direct question of whether Benghazi was a terrorist attack). There are a lot more questions that are going to have to be answered before this issue can be swept aside as you would suggest doing.

 

[ArlingtonDeac]

Not a bad attempt at rationalizing this situation, Arlington, but I can't recall seeing or hearing of a single piece of evidence that would substantiate this claim, and certainly nothing to suggest that this was still a valid conclusion that could be drawn on September 16 (when Susan Rice went on the talk shows) or September 18 (when Obama went on The View and failed to give a yes-or-no answer to Joy Behar's direct question of whether Benghazi was a terrorist attack). There are a lot more questions that are going to have to be answered before this issue can be swept aside as you would suggest doing.

Seems like there was considerable evidence to substantiate the concern, and that it's still an open question as to whether the anti-film protests that occurred -- and anti-film protests did occur in Libya on 9/11 -- were in fact seized upon as cover, creating the specific timing for the terrorist attack. What was coming out of the administration later was, at worst, "we don't know a definitive answer, think it's this, but we are thoroughly investigating." Not exactly damning.

There's no fire here, especially now, when the investigation's findings have been disclosed. This hubbub is just the political theater of trying to pin a bad event on the POTUS -- Romney tried to do so before the bodies had even been identified -- and trying to create the illusion of a complicated administrative deception, when it was really just an evolving investigation that has led to the proper conclusion. If you want to ding the administration for being initially wrong in their theory, publicity, go right ahead. But to attribute active deceit seems purely partisan. And, in the end, what actually matters is that we came to the proper conclusions and can operate from them. The sum total of harm here is that the administration can be characterized as pushing the wrong theory for few weeks before learning it was wrong, and admitted it while adopting the correct information.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/13/w...bya-is-reported-killed.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0

 

[tigerswood]

Either you guys have been following the situation like hawks all along, or have done some great digging/speech writing in the last few hours. Bravo either way. I posted this thread because it was such a central issue/topic of discussion about the debate last night, and have learned a lot more about the situation, and have adapted my opinion on it. Despite the lovely mindless neg reps, I appreciate the rational discussion of Arlington, DeacLaw, etc.

 

[WFFaithful]

"To Libyans who witnessed the assault and know the attackers, there is little doubt what occurred: a well-known group of local Islamist militants struck the United States Mission without any warning or protest, and they did it in retaliation for the video. That is what the fighters said at the time, speaking emotionally of their anger at the video without mentioning Al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden or the terrorist strikes of 11 years earlier. And it is an explanation that tracks with their history as members of a local militant group determined to protect Libya from Western influence."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/16/w...shadow-nuances-of-benghazi-investigation.html

 

[aocs3281]

What bothered me most about the exchange on Libya was Crowley's near immediate recall of what Obama said in the Rose Garden over a month ago. It was clearly a collaborative effort that caught Romney by surprise.

 

[tigerswood]

What bothered me most about the exchange on Libya was Crowley's near immediate recall of what Obama said in the Rose Garden over a month ago. It was clearly a collaborative effort that caught Romney by surprise.

Oh man. You don't know what you're getting yourself into.. Cue Shmooshoomoo in 3..2..1..

 

[jhmd2000]

They can pave their own roads build their own school..... but you want to reserve the right to bombing the shit out of them. At least the bombs will give them a head start for them to drill their own wells!

1 out of 3 is pretty good in Jeff Bzzdelick basketball.

FIFY.