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All Star Game

Did you guys see the pre game thing with Kevin James? I'm not a Kevin James fan, so I could be wrong, but he has not always been this fat, correct? I knew he was pudgy, but last night he just looked flat out obese. Like orca fat.
 
qcdeac said:
from 2004:

San Diego’s Trevor Hoffman, perhaps the game’s second-best active closer (366 career saves) takes the hosannas a step further: Rivera, he says, “will go down as the best reliever in the game in history. His presence in the postseason is so strong that the other team knows that if they’re losing in the eighth inning, they are going to lose.”

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sports/features/9375/
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Fair enough. Notice "Reliever" and not "closer"

jk

I know its a very steep uphill battle to make that argument. Trevor in his prime, I thought his stuff was better than Mo's. Just my opinion. 95 to 69 Change up and they looked like the same pitch. It was pretty fun to watch. I guess broken bats aren't as sexy as strikeouts. Mo is better statistically.
 
Say Hey Deac said:
Did you guys see the pre game thing with Kevin James? I'm not a Kevin James fan, so I could be wrong, but he has not always been this fat, correct? I knew he was pudgy, but last night he just looked flat out obese. Like orca fat.
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did you see his slide in to 2nd in the celeb game. zomg lol. dude's a whale now.
 
deacphan said:
lol what?

there's no objective way to argue hoffman over rivera. rivera has the edge in era, fip, ip, saves, whip, bwar, fwar, era-, and fip-. he out fwars him by nearly double (39 to 23) and out bwars him by even closer to double (55 to 28). this is all ignoring the postseason chances where mo has been amazing. that may be the most idiotic argument in the history of the boards.
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SDeacz said:
Ok, Billy Beane, I have no idea what half those stats are. Total amount of saves is stupid to look at, considering he was given more opportunities. Played for a better team. They have identical 89% save percentages.

Also, when i think of closers, I think of Ks, and Hoffman is 1 Kp9 higher. So identical save percentages, and Hoffman was better at striking guys out. This also includes hoffmans last year where he was 50% in save opps due to hanging on to long.

Just my opinion, through my padre fan glasses. Chill out with the "Idiotic argument in the history of the boards" I'm sure Dolphin Fans say Dan Marino is best ever. Bills fans, Jim Kelley. just an opinion.

You pay closers to save games. They have saved the same percentage of the games they were asked to save.
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k/9 being the only thing hoffman has going for him isn't great. removing some of the more advanced stats, and then removing the fact that rivera had a ton more opportunities, the fact that rivera still has him in ERA and WHIP seems to be a pretty good indicator.

fip and fip- remove the problems of the defense being played behind them, so fielding independent, rivera is better.

bwar and fwar are more complete metrics that do tend to normalize for time, opportunities, etc, and rivera is so much better than a fictional replacement closer than hoffman is.

hoffman may have been better at striking guys out, but rivera was better at getting guys out. which is more important to your team? and given that save percentage is identical, if k/9 is all you're stacking up against basically every other conceivable stat...
 
TownieDeac said:
k/9 being the only thing hoffman has going for him isn't great. removing some of the more advanced stats, and then removing the fact that rivera had a ton more opportunities, the fact that rivera still has him in ERA and WHIP seems to be a pretty good indicator.

fip and fip- remove the problems of the defense being played behind them, so fielding independent, rivera is better.

bwar and fwar are more complete metrics that do tend to normalize for time, opportunities, etc, and rivera is so much better than a fictional replacement closer than hoffman is.

hoffman may have been better at striking guys out, but rivera was better at getting guys out. which is more important to your team? and given that save percentage is identical, if k/9 is all you're stacking up against basically every other conceivable stat...
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Rivera has the better career, no doubt. Better numbers across the board. But Hoffman also tailed off really hard toward the end of his career, skewing some of those numbers.

It would be interesting to look at the 10 years those guys were at their best and compare those numbers. Rivera was certainly better, for longer.

I think best, Most accomplished, and most talented can be 3 different things.
 
I am in New York for meetings, and got on a hotel elevator this morning to leave for my appointment. Jason Grilli's aunt was on the elevator with me. Very cool. She was so excited for him...talked about how long a journey it was for him to get to this point. Two years ago he had a terrible quad injury and was told his career was over. Now, he's an all-star.
 
SDeacz said:
Rivera has the better career, no doubt. Better numbers across the board. But Hoffman also tailed off really hard toward the end of his career, skewing some of those numbers.

It would be interesting to look at the 10 years those guys were at their best and compare those numbers. Rivera was certainly better, for longer.

I think best, Most accomplished, and most talented can be 3 different things.
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Rivera is 43.

I think the comparison that will help your argument the most is let's look at Mo's worst year and compare it to Hoffman's best.
 
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