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Americans becoming less religious due to conservative politics

SkinsNDeacs said:
You guys are great. Look...I am an atheist but just look at how hostile this left leaning board is to religion. This thread was only a few posts deep before you guys were taking shots at religion.
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The thread was about a poll that "took shots" at religion. There are plenty of Christian Democrats out there.
 
deacvision7 said:
You mean to tell me that as the population becomes more educated that fewer and fewer people rely on organized religion to help explain the world around them?
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And here I thought the real story is that most people reject the politics of hate?
 
I don't think it's that people have become enlightened enough to see religious beliefs as superstitious as much as religion has made itself irrelevant by aligning itself political agendas and other false dichotomies.
 
Hasn't religion aligned itself with political agendas since the beginning of time?
 
SkinsNDeacs said:
Hasn't religion aligned itself with political agendas since the beginning of time?
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Since very early on, yes, but I wouldn't say "since the beginning of time." And not all alignment is necessarily bad, but on both the left and the right, religion has become a tool in politics, and not many people have the need for another tool. MLK in his Letter from Birmingham Jail wrote that the church today functions as a thermometer, but its calling is to be a thermostat. A thermometer is a tool, influenced by outside forces and it doesn't really accomplish much of anything, other than telling you what to think. So people, rightly so, are rejecting it. But thermostats change things (hopefully for the better), and people are hungry for that sort of force. At its best, the church can and should do that work, but it's failing/failed.
 
I don't agree with that. Sure, it is good when people use religion to do good work like progressing social freedoms like MLK and Gandhi did or for doing good work for the underprivileged parts of the world like many missionaries do. But I am not looking for the thermostat that wants to outlaw marriage equality or (going to extreme) groups like ISIS who are definitely not thermometers.
 
And that's what the poll generally indicates. And I think you two agree with each other.
 
SkinsNDeacs said:
I don't agree with that. Sure, it is good when people use religion to do good work like progressing social freedoms like MLK and Gandhi did or for doing good work for the underprivileged parts of the world like many missionaries do. But I am not looking for the thermostat that wants to outlaw marriage equality or (going to extreme) groups like ISIS who are definitely not thermometers.
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Nor should you be (imo). Idiots can mess up a thermostat- that's why a lot of public places have those clear lock boxes over the thermostats. The problem is that people use the thermostat, claiming that they work for "management," to suit their own preferences. Maybe you can complain that the manager should prevent this, and that's a valid point.
 
It is more about who is the manager that gets to set the thermostat? Some people are comfortable with 72 and some want it at 65. The problem with setting from a religious perspective is that by it's nature (in most cases) it is exclusive of others preferences. If you are following John 14:6 it doesn't leave room for someone that is following the Shahada.
 
SkinsNDeacs said:
It is more about who is the manager that gets to set the thermostat? Some people are comfortable with 72 and some want it at 65. The problem with setting from a religious perspective is that by it's nature (in most cases) it is exclusive of others preferences. If you are following John 14:6 it doesn't leave room for someone that is following the Shahada.
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I mean this as no offense at all, but if you want to bring the Bible into this (and I'm all for it), let's not play the game invented by those whom we agree are the idiots messing with the thermostat. I can prove any point you want me to with the Bible by misappropriating passages. I'm in the middle of writing a sermon right now, so I don't have the time to do a full explanation of that John passage you reference, but I could easily write pages upon pages about it. If an issue is that complex, our dialogue will only be fruitful if the full impact of that context is honored.

Also, every metaphor (by definition) breaks down at some point, so thermometer/thermostat one isn't going to be perfect. That being said, yes, the "manager" could mandate that the "right" temperature is 70, but imo, the manager gives us the HVAC system, but we have access to the thermostat- we can run it so hard that it breaks the system, or we can fight over 65 vs 72, or we can allow there to be a range. I agree with your assessment that often religion is perceived as being exclusive, and it often promotes that itself. But that doesn't make it valid.

To change metaphors, if you're at at game at FSU and the Noles are rolling, but you choose to cheer "Go Deacs" in the midst of their tomahawk chop, no one is going to hear your voice on television. But does that mean that the Noles fans are all right in their chanting? Of course not. We all know "Go Deacs" to be the true cry of victory, but the majority does not get to define the Truth, they can only twist it towards their ends.
 
Also, for the naysayers, I just want to point out that the last several posts show that healthy dialogue is possible.
 
RevDeac06 said:
I mean this as no offense at all, but if you want to bring the Bible into this (and I'm all for it), let's not play the game invented by those whom we agree are the idiots messing with the thermostat. I can prove any point you want me to with the Bible by misappropriating passages. I'm in the middle of writing a sermon right now, so I don't have the time to do a full explanation of that John passage you reference, but I could easily write pages upon pages about it. If an issue is that complex, our dialogue will only be fruitful if the full impact of that context is honored.

Also, every metaphor (by definition) breaks down at some point, so thermometer/thermostat one isn't going to be perfect. That being said, yes, the "manager" could mandate that the "right" temperature is 70, but imo, the manager gives us the HVAC system, but we have access to the thermostat- we can run it so hard that it breaks the system, or we can fight over 65 vs 72, or we can allow there to be a range. I agree with your assessment that often religion is perceived as being exclusive, and it often promotes that itself. But that doesn't make it valid.

To change metaphors, if you're at at game at FSU and the Noles are rolling, but you choose to cheer "Go Deacs" in the midst of their tomahawk chop, no one is going to hear your voice on television. But does that mean that the Noles fans are all right in their chanting? Of course not. We all know "Go Deacs" to be the true cry of victory, but the majority does not get to define the Truth, they can only twist it towards their ends.
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I didn't mean to suggest that the literal reading of John 14:6 or someone following the Shahada is correct or justified. Only that there are a lot of people that do believe that. And if they fervently think that based on those beliefs they are guided to bend society there isn't much room for opposing views. The problem with religion being the guide for political change is that you get people who are being guided by "No man comes to the Father but through me" and "There is no God but God and Muhammad is his prophet". Those are perfectly fine beliefs to hold but they are awful baselines for guiding a non homogenous society.
 
Yes- I agree that both are horrible baselines for a society or conversation, but they're easy to memorize and clear. Religion, when done well, is very messy. People, generally, don't like messy, so they clean it up to suit their needs. That's what sin is all about. I realize that it's not a very satisfactory response for me to say "well, I promise this isn't how it's supposed to be," but it really is the truth.
 
Quick questions (and then I will leave you to your sermon prep)...how often do these message boards come up in your sermons?
 
SkinsNDeacs said:
Quick questions (and then I will leave you to your sermon prep)...how often do these message boards come up in your sermons?
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Haha, I've yet to say "So I was posting on an internet message board the other day..." but when there is a good conversation like this one, I'd say the theme of the conversations comes into a sermon about 75% of the time. This one will for sure, as I had been planning to talk about the Pew Research findings even before I jumped into this thread this morning.
 
This is being discussed on Diane Rehm right now.
 
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