Drunk when I started the thread and figured I would leave it.
an horable offer to jaybone
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Drunk when I started the thread and figured I would leave it.
Why do you keep using "fuck all to do" statement? It's beyond dumb. Is it a footy thing?
jaybone
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At this stage, if I'm being honest, and I'm certainly trying to, it would be:
* belief in Wellman
* Bzd's year of coaching like 15 years ago that gave me wood 15 years ago
* own ego
I do think Bzd can is a good basketball coach, but I am now wondering (aloud) whether he can relate/inspire/mentor college athletes, lead a program, and react positively to adversity.
I honestly have little problem on a myopic level with how Bzd is answering questions at these press conferences this year, but he almost seems like the Mark Sanchez of coaches. And I am of the firm belief that Mark Sanches is a good to very good NFL quarterback, but my God when both men get kicked in the teeth that I react like Walker getting kneed in the balls - they appear to crumble and question their own skill/talent. if your coach is a wet noddle after these losses, it's difficult to ask your team to be more.
* belief in Wellman
* Bzd's year of coaching like 15 years ago that gave me wood 15 years ago
* own ego
I do think Bzd can is a good basketball coach, but I am now wondering (aloud) whether he can relate/inspire/mentor college athletes, lead a program, and react positively to adversity.
I honestly have little problem on a myopic level with how Bzd is answering questions at these press conferences this year, but he almost seems like the Mark Sanchez of coaches. And I am of the firm belief that Mark Sanches is a good to very good NFL quarterback, but my God when both men get kicked in the teeth that I react like Walker getting kneed in the balls - they appear to crumble and question their own skill/talent. if your coach is a wet noddle after these losses, it's difficult to ask your team to be more.
deacvision7
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DCDeac
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"I don't like the hire" = being an "early defender" of [Redacted]?
Making a bet that I believed our players would win more than 2 ACC games this year = being an "defender" of [Redacted]?
Just keep trying to push everyone into a bucket you can attack and insult.
The unwiped ass crowd is an embarrassment to the school. If you think the ends justify the means or that you're acting in the best interest of Wake Forest, you're kidding yourselves.
deacondemonzzzz
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TheIshThatSaved WakeForest
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Further proving the fact that jaybone is always wrong
Got ya. I'm totally outta the loop on that one. sorry for the tangent, carry on.
+1
liveanddiedeac
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That's the thing with me, [Redacted] has done little to improve our players in almost 2 years that I can see and still no one has shown me different. I honestly can't believe anybody truly believes he's going to be a good coach for us in the long-term, I can see some wanting him to get another year just to see, but for any Wake fan to truly believe at this point it was a good hire is hard for me to believe.
jaybone
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I don't see any value in debating whether he was a good hire or not. That was two years ago. Who cares? It's knowing what we know now, what's the best and what's the fastest way back to excellence? And is there one answer or two answers to that question.
PhDeac
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If the fastest way back to excellence is without Bz then the same AD is going to make a new hire in a similar landscape as the previous hire.
jaybone
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no. the landscape is never ever the same. Your achilles, PH, IMO, is your grasp of the gray area. I know that sounds condescending, and I've typed that in way more condescending ways to you before, but trying not to here.
Since the previous hire, we've had an 8 win season and an 11-15 win season. The ACC is changing by adding two members, but hasn't changed. The Big East is greatly effected. One of the selling points of our job, in the past, has been its relative security compared to most high profile jobs due to Wellman's reputation and the 7+ year tenure of our football and basketball coaches, as well as other coaches in other programs. That would not be the case should we go in a new direction after this season.
Again, doesn't really matter whether you blame Bzd or Wellman or Ari or JTT or Woods or Obama or whomever. But the position Wellman is in right now is way different than two years ago and it will be significantly different in a year and the year after that.
Since the previous hire, we've had an 8 win season and an 11-15 win season. The ACC is changing by adding two members, but hasn't changed. The Big East is greatly effected. One of the selling points of our job, in the past, has been its relative security compared to most high profile jobs due to Wellman's reputation and the 7+ year tenure of our football and basketball coaches, as well as other coaches in other programs. That would not be the case should we go in a new direction after this season.
Again, doesn't really matter whether you blame Bzd or Wellman or Ari or JTT or Woods or Obama or whomever. But the position Wellman is in right now is way different than two years ago and it will be significantly different in a year and the year after that.
liveanddiedeac
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The value I see is why prolong the inevitable? If [Redacted] is not going to be a good long-term coach for us, why prolong his stay here. Sometimes you make a bad hire and it's best to go ahead and let the guy and get somebody else. A couple of football examples are Ron Zook at Florida. He only got 2 years and some probably thought he should've gotten another year or 2, you know to get "his players." Florida wound up with Urban Meyer and the rest is history. Closer to home, look at John Thompson, football coach at ECU in 2003 and 2004. Some thought is was very unfair to let him go after only 2 years, but they hired Skip Hotlz and he brought them back fairly quickly to being a good non-BCS football program. If [Redacted] has shown any ability to improve the players he has now over 2 years, I could buy the "wait till he gets his own players" stuff. He hasn't. There has been no real improvement in our play or our competitiveness. I don't think it would've been fair to ask him to go .500 in the ACC with what he inherited, but I do think it's been fair to ask him to improve the team he inherited and he's failed. How much good does it do us to leave him in place, bring in another recruiting class, have another disappointing season and then finding another coach?
deacvision7
Mod Emeritus
You quote 7+ years for coaches to be in control but you don't have a problem with [Redacted] being let go after 3 years.
Right now you are just arguing semantics when it would be "justified" (in the eyes of people that you don't know) to fire Jeff [Redacted].
You say he needs time with his own players, but then after 1 season with his incoming freshmen if he doesn't get it done you say (for now at least) that it would be defensible to fire him.
You are talking out of both sides of your mouth here.
jaybone
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The debate you are talking about has really nothing to do with whether he was a good hire or not. The question is, if you were Wellman, would you fire him at the end of the year of give him another year.
deacvision7
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I'd fire him because it is now blatantly apparent that hiring him was a terrible, terrible mistake.
liveanddiedeac
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So, the fact that our team hasn't improved and been completely uncompetitive in the large majority of it's league games and we've lost to such powerhouses as Stetson, Prebyterian, UNC-W, Wofford, not even very competitive with Richmond twice, and probably another one or two I'm forgeting doesn't factor in whether he was a good hire or not????? If I was Wellman and looking at it objectively, I say I've seen nothing to make me think this was a good hire for Wake Forest and I'd let him go right now and move on. I hate for us and I hate for Jeff [Redacted], he hasn't failed on purpose. Heck, I think it might be just as good for him to leave as it would be for us.
jaybone
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I don't think so. If I am Wellman, I have benchmarks I have discussed with Bzd, and gotten his input on those benchmarks. I probably set the expected win total at 9-12 wins last year and after last year, 12-15 for this year. He basically met those benchmarks. Next year, I am going to tack on 6 or 7 more wins to that expectations so, close to .500 in the ACC and a bubble team.
Since he's going to meet expectations this year, he gets another, but next year I am amping up expectations for a number of reasons, including fans discontent, talent uptick, and changing environs.
Don't see how it is talking out of both sides of my mouth. I think I've been pretty consistent all season long. I expected 15 wins, which I thought was a bit optimistic, but we were going to be way more experienced this year than last year, though probably not quite as talented, on paper.
Obviously, if we don't win another game the rest of the year, again, if I'm Wellman, I have to seriously reconsider my strategy. For one, for a second year in a year, he would have not quite met my expectations AND been the captain of a end of season collapse twice.
I thought we came out with good energy against Clemson. If I'm Wellman, I don't think bzd is in over his head at all, but I'm looking at whether he is an adequate leader. He seems to do things the right way, but a bit of a wet noodle. Since this is an alpha male's game, as are most sports, some of the shit Bzd takes might have something to do with him not really being an alpha male.
In contrast, Skip couldn't give a shit really about fans and pressure. He had a philosophy that sort of overrode that pressure. He got prickly, for sure, but a lot of that simply was based on the reality that he was an awesome leader, adequate bball coach. Dino was an alpha male but a little bit of Napoleanic one. And he felt the pressure, IMO, in some of the corners he cut to build out a talented roster. If he was going to get shit for losing tourney games, he was gonna get 5star/4star talent to hell or high water. The way Bzd handles pressure, so far, and from afar, is way too defensive and vulnerable. I can't imagine the team is 100% confident in him when he doesn't seem to be 100% confident in himself. Some of that may be the stark reality that he has little faith in this roster and is waiting for next year. As much as I love Skip, I thought he did that one year too. Maybe two years.
Anyway ... back to work
jaybone
Well-known member
I'd look at what I think I could get and what I have already and determine whether it was upgrade or not. If it wasn't, I can't do this every two years, just can't.
And it would be the stake in the heart to Bzd's career if he quit, don't kid yourself into thinking this would great for both parties. It would not. Heck, I don't think it would be great for us.