• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

At least 172 Palestinians killed, 1,280 injured, UN says 77% are civilians

can we just build a big wall around all of them and quietly close the door?

#escapefromnewyork
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
While we're "characterizing" people, I would garner that most people who are sympathizing solely with Israel are either Jewish, somewhat hardline conservatives, or over the age of 45. Hell some may be all three.

Getting away from that red herring which could easily draw away from the actual discussion: I do not for one second believe that Israel is an objectively rational actor, but I suppose as far as being the sharpest broken pencil they are somewhat "rational." So, compared to Hamas - a terrorist organization, I would say that Israel is probably somewhat more likely to act in a rational manner.

Anyone who can't see that both sides are entirely at fault (I would call them jointly and severally liable) I question their motives and/or background.
Click to expand...


I've said numerous tes Bebe and the far right in Israel do have blame. However, at the core of your next post is that IOsrael has right to exist.

On multiple threads, you have had only the side that Israel should not exist.
 
Last edited:
RJKarl said:
If I actually paid attention I'd know that the rest of this post is in no way a response to the post I am quoting and is not relevant to the point the poster I am quoting was trying to make.

you'd see that I said Bebe was a huge impediment to peace. His actions regarding settlements are wrong.

But the reality is Hamas still won't acknowledge Israel's right to exist. Neither will their sugar daddies in Tehran nor will other Arab countries.
Click to expand...

FIFY
 
There are groups on both sides of this conflict who wish to continue to provoke and over react so that the atmosphere remains so thoroughly poisoned that no agreement is possible. They want people to stay bitter and distrustful of each other on both sides. Until these elements in both camps are brought to heel, things will pretty much continue in the same dismal state as they are today.
 
RJKarl said:
Go fuck yourself. I've said numerous tes Bebe and the far right in Israel do have blame. However, at the core of your next post is that IOsrael has right to exist.

On multiple threads, you have had only the side that Israel should not exist.
Click to expand...

I've said multiple times that both sides have the right to exist and the right to defend themselves. They view their borders of existence as overlapping thus one of the major problems.
 
In 1998 and again early on in the Obama Administration, Israel had agreed to give back 98% of the territory taken in the 67 War. Basically all that was kept were the Golan Heights (which no country would give back after a war) and East Jerusalem (which might be able to be a UN protectorate).

Remember prior to the 67 war, Jews (and to a lesser extent Christians) were banned from visiting many of the holy sites in East Jerusalem.

The Palestinian State was guaranteed an airport. Palestinian workers were guaranteed easy access to Israel for their jobs. Palestinians would have been given access to Israel for everything form shopping to visiting their families and to all the holy sites (which they do have now).

When you lose a war, you lose some land. Mexico lost TX and CA to the US. Germany lost much of the Alsace to France. The list of such land changes is nearly limitless. The concept that the Palestinians deserve 100% is simply not the norm in the history of war.
 
Yeah I'm not saying that Palestine is entitled to all their land back when they lost a war - especially since they were relatively responsible for starting the conflict in the first place. The United States doesn't even recognize Palestine as a state and Israel does not either. I think that a lot could happen if we merely gave them international recognition as a country. Israel has this recognition and it's time to recognize Palestine.
 
Marquee Moon said:
You are an odd duck
Click to expand...

I am, but not because I give props to anonymous posters when I come across tags I find amusing. That's just showing appreciation. Oh wait, not many on here do that, so I guess that's just one more thing that makes me a bit of an odd duck.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Yeah I'm not saying that Palestine is entitled to all their land back when they lost a war - especially since they were relatively responsible for starting the conflict in the first place. The United States doesn't even recognize Palestine as a state and Israel does not either. I think that a lot could happen if we merely gave them international recognition as a country. Israel has this recognition and it's time to recognize Palestine.
Click to expand...

Israel has been ready to recognize the State of Palestine for about twenty years. Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist. You can't blame recognition on Israel.
 
Well Sharon recognized Palestine (for the first time from Israel's side) as a state and viewed it as a two-state solution. Netanyahu did not want to recognize it, was persuaded to do so by the international community (namely Obama, which is ironic given America doesn't recognize Palestine as a state) and remains to this day to only support it for a severely reduced Palestine. Palestine isn't going to accept this without a guarantee of lands ceded back to the country and Israel knows this which is why Netanyahu is consistent in the matter - he can say "I'M FOR PALESTINE1111" while knowing Palestine is never going to accept the terms of his offer.

As posted earlier, Israel wants peace but they don't want justice or equality - they view peace as "we get what we want and you stop fighting us about it."

I will add that Hamas does not want peace, but merely what they view as their entitlement to their own land.
 
Oh and this is particularly rich:

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2009/1115/p01s01-wome.html/(page)/2

In 2009, Israel said they were in favor of Palestine as a state, but not if Palestine unilaterally tries to declare themselves as a state to the UN.

"You can be a state, but only through our own terms. If you try to establish statehood without our blessing, we're going to be opposed to it."

Silly.
 
ImTheCaptain said:
way to take the higher road, Israel
Click to expand...

4608967_1.gif
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Oh and this is particularly rich:

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2009/1115/p01s01-wome.html/(page)/2

In 2009, Israel said they were in favor of Palestine as a state, but not if Palestine unilaterally tries to declare themselves as a state to the UN.

"You can be a state, but only through our own terms. If you try to establish statehood without our blessing, we're going to be opposed to it."

Silly.
Click to expand...

This is from a column in Haaretz that I posted earlier.
So began the process in which Israeli conditions, obstacles and difficulties were heaped up, one more milestone in Israeli rejectionism. First came the demand for a cessation of terrorism; then the demand for a change of leadership (Yasser Arafat as a stumbling block); and after that Hamas became the hurdle. Now it’s the Palestinians’ refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Israel considers every step it takes – from mass political arrests to building in the territories – to be legitimate, whereas every Palestinian move is “unilateral.”

The only country on the planet with no borders is so far unwilling to delineate even the compromise borders it is ready to be satisfied with. Israel has not internalized the fact that, for the Palestinians, the borders of 1967 are the mother of all compromises, the red line of justice (or relative justice). For the Israelis, they are “suicide borders.” This is why the preservation of the status quo has become the true Israeli aim, the primary goal of Israeli policy, almost its be-all and end-all.
Click to expand...
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-peace-conference/1.601112
 
That is a fantastic article. This paragraph really hit home:

"Disconnected from reality, the majority of Israelis pursue their regular way of life. In their mind’s eye the world is always against them, and the areas of occupation on their doorstep are beyond their realm of interest. Anyone who dares criticize the occupation policy is branded an anti-Semite, every act of resistance is perceived as an existential threat. All international opposition to the occupation is read as the “delegitimizing” of Israel and as a provocation to the country’s very existence. The world’s seven billion people – most of whom are against the occupation – are wrong, and six million Israeli Jews – most of whom support the occupation – are right. That’s the reality in the eyes of the average Israeli."
 
Another really good read: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.605232

"A BBC TV crew was standing in the rubble of a home for disabled persons in Gaza, where locals were trying to dig out the bodies of those who couldn't make it out on their wheelchairs in the less than 60 seconds warning they had been given before the Israeli bombardment. It's hard to imagine how anyone in this building could have been a threat to anyone, the reporter said. Sky News showed more rubble."

"This Sunday, a trauma expert with kind eyes spoke on one of the Israeli TV channels about the distress that living under sirens can cause children. On Monday, on the radio a psychologist advised on how to deal with the fears of children and elderly people under fire or stuck in shelters and protected areas for prolonged periods of time.

Neither said a word about the hundreds – thousands – of children on the other side of the border who have no sirens to warn them, no shelters to go to, and no summer camps to be sent to outside the range of massive Israeli firepower.

So much for unity and solidarity, never mind basic compassion, under fire. I'm beginning to conclude it was always an illusion anyway. Those who babble on about unity all the time are the only ones living in unity, inside their own delusional bubble."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top