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Beheading In South London

A 2 year old son without a father now- it's infuriating. I think what's most disturbing is that it appears a lot of second generation Muslims in England seem to be more religious than their parents. This is from 2007:
In the survey of 1,003 Muslims by the polling company Populus through internet and telephone questionnaires, nearly 60% said they would prefer to live under British law, while 37% of 16 to 24-year-olds said they would prefer sharia law, against 17% of those over 55. Eighty-six per cent said their religion was the most important thing in their lives.

Nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-olds believed that those converting to another religion should be executed, while less than a fifth of those over 55 believed the same.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jan/29/thinktanks.religion
When these atrocities occur and politicians say, "That's not Islam", it's bullshit. Because these lunatics DO find support for their fucked up beliefs in Islam. Just like the Muslims who claim Islam is about peace and tolerance are able to find passages to support their beliefs. If that polling is correct, England is facing a younger generation that seems to be more militant, less amenable to secularism, than their parents. And that would suggest religiously motivated attacks will continue. What is the answer? England's already more of a police state than even the US. Should people continue giving up their freedoms in the name of "fighting terror" or just throw up their hands and accept there are a lot of intolerant religious nutters in England who are going to occasionally kill people? What can be done?
 
WakeandBake said:
looks like he bled out mostly on the sidewalk
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For someone who was hacked to death that's a pretty straight line of blood.

I'm awaiting a drone strike. Nice knowing you all.
 
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BobStackFan4Life said:
A 2 year old son without a father now- it's infuriating. I think what's most disturbing is that it appears a lot of second generation Muslims in England seem to be more religious than their parents. This is from 2007:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jan/29/thinktanks.religion
When these atrocities occur and politicians say, "That's not Islam", it's bullshit. Because these lunatics DO find support for their fucked up beliefs in Islam. Just like the Muslims who claim Islam is about peace and tolerance are able to find passages to support their beliefs. If that polling is correct, England is facing a younger generation that seems to be more militant, less amenable to secularism, than their parents. And that would suggest religiously motivated attacks will continue. What is the answer? England's already more of a police state than even the US. Should people continue giving up their freedoms in the name of "fighting terror" or just throw up their hands and accept there are a lot of intolerant religious nutters in England who are going to occasionally kill people? What can be done?
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Nuke the Middle East, which often seems to be the easy answer to most of the world's problems. Then deal with the stragglers as they appear. Each country in the world gets one vote, all in favor say aye.
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
Nuke the Middle East, which often seems to be the easy answer to most of the world's problems. Then deal with the stragglers as they appear. Each country in the world gets one vote, all in favor say aye.
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2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
I just find it humorous that, generally speaking, conservatives oppose abortion but approve of us bombing the shit out of Ahab the Arab and executing criminals, while liberals love to allow women to kill fetuses because (in the overwhelming majority of cases) the consequences of the women's actions are somehow too much of a burden for her to accept herself, but vehemently oppose killing adults as consequences for their own actions or in a war context. The hypocricy on both sides is unbelievable.

I personally oppose abortion, but I don't care if someone else wants to do it. My only request is that, if a woman is allowed to legally kill a fetus that she thinks is too much of a drain on her, then I should be able to go around and legally kill anyone who I think is too much of drain on me.
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Or something like that...
 
BobStackFan4Life said:
When these atrocities occur and politicians say, "That's not Islam", it's bullshit. Because these lunatics DO find support for their fucked up beliefs in Islam. Just like the Muslims who claim Islam is about peace and tolerance are able to find passages to support their beliefs. If that polling is correct, England is facing a younger generation that seems to be more militant, less amenable to secularism, than their parents. And that would suggest religiously motivated attacks will continue. What is the answer? England's already more of a police state than even the US. Should people continue giving up their freedoms in the name of "fighting terror" or just throw up their hands and accept there are a lot of intolerant religious nutters in England who are going to occasionally kill people? What can be done?
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I think the problem is religion (add atheism to that category) more-broadly.

Do you think there are more terrorists operating under the directive from radical Islam than there are "militiamen" and "anti-American government activists" - or, hell, war-hawk politicians and policymakers - motivated purely by Christian doctrine?

This is something I find myself wrestling with a lot as an American Jew, who believes that Judaism and our religious doctrine are being used to justify acts of terrorism against Palestinians...

The next question is, what is terrorism?

Right now, it's acts of violence brown people do to white people to inspire terror, but if you flip the script, then there's far more terrorism in the name of religion than makes it to the evening news...

ETA: The video is horrible and these guys are horribly misguided psychopaths who deserve to rot in Hell for what they've done, but the issues it raises, I think, are important ones.
 
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Strickland33 said:
I think the problem is religion (add atheism to that category) more-broadly.

Do you think there are more terrorists operating under the directive from radical Islam than there are "militiamen" and "anti-American government activists" - or, hell, war-hawk politicians and policymakers - motivated purely by Christian doctrine?

This is something I find myself wrestling with a lot as an American Jew, who believes that Judaism and our religious doctrine are being used to justify acts of terrorism against Palestinians...

The next question is, what is terrorism?

Right now, it's acts of violence brown people do to white people to inspire terror, but if you flip the script, then there's far more terrorism in the name of religion than makes it to the evening news...

ETA: The video is horrible and these guys are horribly misguided psychopaths who deserve to rot in Hell for what they've done, but the issues it raises, I think, are important ones.
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As Mark Steyn recently said (and I paraphrase), if it wasn't for the Islamic crescent in the "Coexist" bumper stickers, we wouldn't need "Coexist" bumper stickers.
 
DeacLaw05 said:
As Mark Steyn recently said (and I paraphrase), if it wasn't for the Islamic crescent in the "Coexist" bumper stickers, we wouldn't need "Coexist" bumper stickers.
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I'm not understanding your point.
 
DeacLaw05 said:
As Mark Steyn recently said (and I paraphrase), if it wasn't for the Islamic crescent in the "Coexist" bumper stickers, we wouldn't need "Coexist" bumper stickers.
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Right, because there has never, ever been war or religious persecution that didn't involve Islam. Nope, never.
 
There have been a lot though. Of course most of those involved Christians as well.
 
I mean are we honestly so shortsighted to not see American foreign policy intervention as provocation for retaliation, religiously motivated or otherwise?

You can agree with our foreign policy interventions in the Middle East and still understand why that would piss off really poor people living in the countries in which we play oil-interested war games. That doesn't strike me as particularly difficult to do. Justification can be religious, but still reflect what others interpret to be screwed up. It's not like it says the following in the Qur'an: "On the 22nd day of the Month of May in the year 2013, you shall go to South London, and run your car into a British soldier and, then hack him to bits in my name."
 
woah... theres a reason when i stumble over here i rarely stay long.
 
Strickland33 said:
I mean are we honestly so shortsighted to not see American foreign policy intervention as provocation for retaliation, religiously motivated or otherwise?

You can agree with our foreign policy interventions in the Middle East and still understand why that would piss off really poor people living in the countries in which we play oil-interested war games. That doesn't strike me as particularly difficult to do. Justification can be religious, but still reflect what others interpret to be screwed up. It's not like it says the following in the Qur'an: "On the 22nd day of the Month of May in the year 2013, you shall go to South London, and run your car into a British soldier and, then hack him to bits in my name."
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I agree with your basic point about U.S (really any Western country's) foreign policy interventions. The thing is, though, many suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks by Muslims are committed by people who are decidedly not poor or uneducated. Sure, educated people are more likely to engage in political conflict, but religion and politics are inextricably linked in the Middle East.

As for the Koran, here is some of what it does say (putting this in a spoiler box because it is long):

“It is the same whether or not you forewarn them [the unbelievers], they will have no faith” (2:6). “God will mock them and keep them long in sin, blundering blindly along” (2:15). A fire “whose fuel is men and stones” awaits them (2:24). They will be “rewarded with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the Day of Resurrection” (2:85). “God’s curse be upon the infidels!” (2:89). “They have incurred God’s most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits [them]” (2:90). “God is the enemy of the unbelievers” (2:98).
“The unbelievers among the People of the Book [Christians and Jews], and the pagans, resent that any blessing should have been sent down to you from your Lord” (2:105). “They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter” (2:114). “Those to whom We [God] have given the Book, and who read it as it ought to be read, truly believe in it; those that deny it shall assuredly be lost” (2:122). “[We] shall let them live awhile, and then shall drag them to the scourge of the Fire. Evil shall be their fate" (2:126). “The East and the West are God’s. He “guides whom He will to a straight path” (2:142).
“Do not say that those slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, but you are not aware of them” (2:154). “But the infidels who die unbelievers shall incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall remain for ever; their punishment shall not be lightened, nor shall they be reprieved” (2:162). “They shall sigh with remorse, but shall never come out of the Fire” (2:168). “The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing” (2:172). “Theirs shall be a woeful punishment” (2:175). “How steadfastly they seek the Fire! That is because God has revealed the Book with truth; those that disagree about it are in extreme schism” (2:176). “Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage…. f they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded: but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evildoers” (2:190-93)
“Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know not” (2:216). “They will not cease to fight against you until they force you to renounce your faith—if they are able. But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever, his works shall come to nothing in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be the tenants of Hell, wherein they shall abide forever. Those that have embraced the Faith, and those that have fled their land and fought for the cause of God, may hope for God’s mercy” (2:217–18).
“God does not guide the evil-doers” (2:258). “God does not guide the unbelievers” (2:264). “The evil-doers shall have none to help them” (2:270). “God gives guidance to whom He will” (2:272).”


Note that these are excerpts from just one chapter. And if one believes--actually believes--that the Koran is the literal and inerrant word of God, it's suddenly easy to see how one can turn to violence in the name of Islam.

That said, we must draw a distinction between condemning ideas/tenets of the faith and discriminating against Muslims as people--that would be obvious bigotry. These two excellent articles make that point much more strongly. The first is by a liberal, former member of the Maine legislature, and the second is by an atheist ex-Muslim:

http://www.richarddawkins.net/found...going-to-finally-get-it-this-time-about-islam

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a...-of-islamophobia_b_3159286.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

It's undoubtedly a difficult subject to broach, but it's increasingly looking like one that should be discussed.
 
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