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Better Call Saul, The Mafia Game. Indies Win! Gooner, GAT and Duff

To me it feels like intentionally making mistakes to try to clear yourself is a lame way to play the game. There are plenty of other ways to make yourself appear as a civ. I guess there’s nothing wrong with it, I just think I’d enjoy being mafia less if I relied on that.
 
deacon14 said:
To me it feels like intentionally making mistakes to try to clear yourself is a lame way to play the game. There are plenty of other ways to make yourself appear as a civ. I guess there’s nothing wrong with it, I just think I’d enjoy being mafia less if I relied on that.
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mako1331 said:
Alright. Fuck it. You got me. I’m dirty.

I’ll leave you with this. Maf 1-no more crosshits. We’re both in shit shape so let’s fuck this dipshit civs up. We’ve got a vig, so let’s both hit juice tonight so it goes through. Tell my mother I died bravely and looked the executioner in the eye.


And suck my dick, you broke-ass bitches.
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For posterity. This was just amazing.
 
deacon14 said:
To me it feels like intentionally making mistakes to try to clear yourself is a lame way to play the game. There are plenty of other ways to make yourself appear as a civ. I guess there’s nothing wrong with it, I just think I’d enjoy being mafia less if I relied on that.
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In recent history, we've had two games where civs won by no other virtue than two or three civs dumbtelling their way clear and making end game. Mafia HAS to evolve.

We can't have a thread like we did a few weeks ago bemoaning that mafia can't win and has to evolve and not seriously consider how that actually happens. Like GAT said, it's a flat circle.

Mafia wins games by appearing civ. If we're playing with Numbers and Doofus as civs, do we collectively not understand what that means?
 
TownieDeac said:
yea sweet brag there after not playing the first three days too knight

super sporting play
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You played really well; better than I did. I have you as civ MVP because you kept your fucking cool in the goddamned jungles of Nam. I'd be happy to share a foxhole with you (or just Gouda's mom's hole).
 
Toogs said:
Also I have suggested this several times and not heard much response, so as the Ultimate Authority on Ethical Mafia Play I hereby decree fake dumbtelling is now an appropriate mafioso stratagem. Go for it fuckers. I see a full third of you don't really know what dumbtell means anyway, another quarter (some overlap) are just dumb so it's not dumbtelling, it's just telling. Carry on!
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Deus Vult
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
I expected it to work, frankly

other maf didn't bite though
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I think we were worried there would be a watcher and both mafias would be fucked. I don't think we seriously ever considered hitting you. Pretty quickly we moved on to who else we wanted to kill. Plus we had incentive for maf2 to be eliminated which would lead to toogs joining maf1 with us in addition to getting their night hit. With NoVa out already it felt within reach.
 
Grabs Turds Bare said:
In recent history, we've had two games where civs won by no other virtue than two or three civs dumbtelling their way clear and making end game. Mafia HAS to evolve.

We can't have a thread like we did a few weeks ago bemoaning that mafia can't win and has to evolve and not seriously consider how that actually happens. Like GAT said, it's a flat circle.

Mafia wins games by appearing civ. If we're playing with Numbers and Doofus as civs, do we collectively not understand what that means?
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I mean, sure I guess, but my point wasn't really about winning games. My point was that I think I would enjoy the game less (win or lose) by adapting that sort of play style. To me, the challenge of being mafia is to clear yourself as best you can, and doing it through making mistakes cheapens it for me. If it doesn't for you, that's fine, but I'm also probably never going to clear you based on something like that again anyways.

I'm also not really a part of the win at all costs mentality, so I think we are thinking of this differently.
 
Additionally, in order for making mistakes as maf to actually have the clearing effect you want, you have to make those mistakes as a civ as well. So, one of two things are true:

1. You are unintentionally making those mistakes as a civ. If everyone just focused on doing their best to stop this, this overall discussion doesn't matter anymore. Your response to your mistakes as a civ shouldn't be to reciprocate them as a maf, it should be to limit them as a civ. Obviously they are never fully going away, but double checking before you post things fixes a lot of these.

2. You are intentionally making those mistakes as a civ, to the likely detriment of your own civ team through the spreading of misinformation/general confusion/waste of time it takes to correct you. This is dumb, as you are simply being intentionally detrimental to your current civ team so that you can have a potential advantage for future maf teams.
 
deacon14 said:
I mean, sure I guess, but my point wasn't really about winning games. My point was that I think I would enjoy the game less (win or lose) by adapting that sort of play style. To me, the challenge of being mafia is to clear yourself as best you can, and doing it through making mistakes cheapens it for me. If it doesn't for you, that's fine, but I'm also probably never going to clear you based on something like that again anyways.

I'm also not really a part of the win at all costs mentality, so I think we are thinking of this differently.
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I don't want to be cleared by a dumbtell. I don't want anyone to be cleared by a dumbtell. Players being cleared via dumbtell rewards the opposite of what we want: good, reasoned play. The only effective way to eliminate the "advantage" that players capable of an actual dumbtell is to undermine dumbtelling - by definition, you can't administratively police dumbtelling; it has to be a grassroots response.

As the game is now, DaDeacs will never dumbtell. Neither will Eagles. Both of them play extremely conscientious games. A whole host of the very best players won't intentionally do it.

However, we have a large number of players (5-7?) who play so loose that it's a sure thing for at least one or two of them to clear themselves via dumbtell every game.

By owning dumbtells and creating organic pathways and strategy around dumbtells I'm trying to foster an environment to do two things: (1) undermine the ability of the 5-7 players who exclusively benefit from it, and (2) create a new layer to the meta that allows for a richer analysis of the scope of posts.

When we have great players like Rommy, DaDeacs, and Toogs weaving dumbtells into their strategy, it will accomplish those goals.
 
deacon14 said:
Additionally, in order for making mistakes as maf to actually have the clearing effect you want, you have to make those mistakes as a civ as well. So, one of two things are true:

1. You are unintentionally making those mistakes as a civ. If everyone just focused on doing their best to stop this, this overall discussion doesn't matter anymore. Your response to your mistakes as a civ shouldn't be to reciprocate them as a maf, it should be to limit them as a civ. Obviously they are never fully going away, but double checking before you post things fixes a lot of these.

2. You are intentionally making those mistakes as a civ, to the likely detriment of your own civ team through the spreading of misinformation/general confusion/waste of time it takes to correct you. This is dumb, as you are simply being intentionally detrimental to your current civ team so that you can have a potential advantage for future maf teams.
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giphy.gif
 
deacon14 said:
Additionally, in order for making mistakes as maf to actually have the clearing effect you want, you have to make those mistakes as a civ as well. So, one of two things are true:

1. You are unintentionally making those mistakes as a civ. If everyone just focused on doing their best to stop this, this overall discussion doesn't matter anymore. Your response to your mistakes as a civ shouldn't be to reciprocate them as a maf, it should be to limit them as a civ. Obviously they are never fully going away, but double checking before you post things fixes a lot of these.

2. You are intentionally making those mistakes as a civ, to the likely detriment of your own civ team through the spreading of misinformation/general confusion/waste of time it takes to correct you. This is dumb, as you are simply being intentionally detrimental to your current civ team so that you can have a potential advantage for future maf teams.
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This is a good post, but you fundamentally misunderstand what a dumbtell is. A civ makes a dumbtell because they lack knowledge. The dumbtell is just that, it's a player "telling" their alignment by doing something that demonstrates ignorance ("dumb") that mafia wouldn't do.

I'm telling you that civs can't help but do it. It's like missing a deadline - no one intentionally does it. Shit happens. Things come up.

Civs won't (shouldn't) intentionally dumbtell, just as civs won't ever (shouldn't JMAN!) intentionally lie.
 
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