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Breaking down the Tunnels' favorite conservative myth

I don't believe that blowing smoke up a kid's skirt about opportunities that may not exist is fair to the child nor the best way to go. This is also why I'm pretty anti-religion and anti-Manifest Destiny/American Dream propaganda (and that's what it is - propaganda). I'll always place my money on the kid who has been taught reality over a kid who has been sold a myth. Working hard will certainly put you ahead of equally situated people who don't work hard, but working hard won't always put you ahead of people who start ahead of you. That's what I'll tell my kids, and that's why I will take the kid who has the actual information instead of the myth in tow when he starts working in America.

It's also a loaded question since the sides presented are "work hard" or "no hard work ever puts you ahead." I would think the options are "if you work hard anything can happen!" vs. "even if you work hard you might still not succeed objectively, but working hard is always going to help put you ahead of some others."
 
It was a bullshit oversimplified question that would be bandied about at an Ayn Rand convention. Asking and answering it are an exercise in futility.

Analyaizing data and economic trends is a much more worthwhile endeavor than unicorn theories and unrealistic scenarios and allegories.

And jhmd is right about his precious 4 tenets of success. Those four things will certainly improve your chances for success in life in general. No doubt about it and I can't find anywhere anyone saying otherwise.

But the grownups on this thread realize that it is a complex mix of economic and legal issues that have tilted the table toward of capital (over labor),toward the financial sector, that have kept wages low, and has left the middle class gasping for air while the millionaire and billionaire class has enjoyed unprecedented growth and prosperity and shelter from harm. Working poor is a common and accepted paradoxical locution.

The Dem party is not free of blame either. They accept money from the same robber barons and are right-of-center economically. They offer platitudes to the poor and make big promises and offer little results. The dole is the best friend of both sides, because it subsidizes cheap labor, low wages, and big returns for fatcats who are taxed at 15%. It's good deal for the millionaire/billionaire class, and that - not the poor looking for handouts -is who gets the Dems elected at the same rate as the Pubs.
 
nonsense ninja is not making a ton of sense here

he's gonna tell his kids that they can be whatever they want

the difference is that he can sell his kids whatever narrative he wants because he's gonna be able to afford to send them to good schools and give them every leg up imaginable much like his parents did the same for him

if numbers has a kid too young, out of wedlock, he'd have the safety net of his parents around him to avoid the kind of generational poverty that fucks others up, so again, the narrative doesn't matter

similarly, the stories poor families tell their kids don't make nearly as much difference as the opportunities they're able to give them

hence why trying to take the three pieces from the OP and make them a magic bullet makes less sense than just admitting it's about money and opportunity
 
TownieDeac said:
nonsense ninja is not making a ton of sense here

he's gonna tell his kids that they can be whatever they want

the difference is that he can sell his kids whatever narrative he wants because he's gonna be able to afford to send them to good schools and give them every leg up imaginable much like his parents did the same for him

if numbers has a kid too young, out of wedlock, he'd have the safety net of his parents around him to avoid the kind of generational poverty that fucks others up, so again, the narrative doesn't matter

similarly, the stories poor families tell their kids don't make nearly as much difference as the opportunities they're able to give them

hence why trying to take the three pieces from the OP and make them a magic bullet makes less sense than just admitting it's about money and opportunity
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Oh yeah I was just answering the question from my own perspective of what I would do if they were my kids. It's almost certainly about money and opportunity.
 
That being said, white dudes with privilege still gotta raise kids too if they have 'em. Gotta find some way to parent but it will certainly include learning from day one that they're very lucky motherfuckers just like my parents always told me. Pops always told me "Ninja when you're spewing that nonsense remember that there are others out there that don't have the platform to spew such bullshit. Thank your mother for making so much dough."
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Working hard will certainly put you ahead of equally situated people who don't work hard, but working hard won't always put you ahead of people who start ahead of you.

"
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Why so worried about others? No amount of hard work is likely to put me in front of Donald Trumps kids, but who cares. I probably started behind a majority of you guys and may well finish behind you guys, but the fact remains that believing in hard work and refusing to quit trying when you meet failure will likely allow you to achieve at least a respectable level of success.

I would put my money on that second kid every day of the week. He will likely finish ahead of people that start with much more privilege but who believe the system is stacked against them. Immigrants are doing it every day. I have seen illegal immigrants in my area succeed at a very high level despite serious language barriers.

Victim mentality is a huge barrier to success.
 
I'm worried about others because I believe that if we want America to be a land of equality we should seek to level the playing field.
 
knowell said:
Why so worried about others? No amount of hard work is likely to put me in front of Donald Trumps kids, but who cares. I probably started behind a majority of you guys and may well finish behind you guys, but the fact remains that believing in hard work and refusing to quit trying when you meet failure will likely allow you to achieve at least a respectable level of success.
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That is my biggest issue with millennials. Everything feeds this massive inferiority complex/competition. Their entire fucking existence revolves around e-rep and likes and "hey everybody look at me!". If people just worried about their own situation and not what everyone else is doing then they would go a lot farther, whether it in terms of materialistic concerns or simply being happy.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
I'm worried about others because I believe that if we want America to be a land of equality we should seek to level the playing field.
Click to expand...

There will never be a level playing field unless we reduce everybody to the very bottom. Even then, people have better genetics, better health, better looks, better personality, higher intelligence, better work ethic, better mentors. Isn't it best that we all do what we can to make the best life we can given whatever situation life hands you.
 
knowell said:
Why so worried about others? No amount of hard work is likely to put me in front of Donald Trumps kids, but who cares. I probably started behind a majority of you guys and may well finish behind you guys, but the fact remains that believing in hard work and refusing to quit trying when you meet failure will likely allow you to achieve at least a respectable level of success.

I would put my money on that second kid every day of the week. He will likely finish ahead of people that start with much more privilege but who believe the system is stacked against them. Immigrants are doing it every day. I have seen illegal immigrants in my area succeed at a very high level despite serious language barriers.

Victim mentality is a huge barrier to success.
Click to expand...
Let's just ignore systemic inequality and corruption, it will all go away if we just close our eyes and cover our ears. Just wait for the trickle down from the benevolent job creators.
 
knowell said:
There will never be a level playing field unless we reduce everybody to the very bottom. Even then, people have better genetics, better health, better looks, better personality, higher intelligence, better work ethic, better mentors. Isn't it best that we all do what we can to make the best life we can given whatever situation life hands you.
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Such bullshit. Absolute privileged bullshit. "I didn't own no slaves, I don't owe no damn reparations".
 
Can't we just agree that very few people are successful without having to work hard while even fewer are successful based solely on their hard work and move on?
 
knowell said:
There will never be a level playing field unless we reduce everybody to the very bottom. Even then, people have better genetics, better health, better looks, better personality, higher intelligence, better work ethic, better mentors. Isn't it best that we all do what we can to make the best life we can given whatever situation life hands you.
Click to expand...

eh, is this serious? You seem to not grasp any of this. Your almost literal interpretation of the term is bewildering. And that last sentence sounds like something your mommy tells you when you complain that you aren't tall enough to ride the ride at the fair and have to get on the kiddie ride. Why is your worldview so oversimplified? This is a macroeconomic issue that has real-world fixes with historical, empirical data to back them up.
 
knowell said:
Why so worried about others? No amount of hard work is likely to put me in front of Donald Trumps kids, but who cares. I probably started behind a majority of you guys and may well finish behind you guys, but the fact remains that believing in hard work and refusing to quit trying when you meet failure will likely allow you to achieve at least a respectable level of success.

I would put my money on that second kid every day of the week. He will likely finish ahead of people that start with much more privilege but who believe the system is stacked against them. Immigrants are doing it every day. I have seen illegal immigrants in my area succeed at a very high level despite serious language barriers.

Victim mentality is a huge barrier to success.
Click to expand...

Who are you even talking about? This is about the working poor - people who already are busting their asses and cannot get ahead the way their fathers and mothers once did in this country. This is about people who know damn good and well that the deck is most certainly stacked against them who still get out there and work and get dick for it, but watch the owner class get richer at unprecedented levels.

And this is your answer to that?
 
2&2 Slider To Leyritz said:
That is my biggest issue with millennials. Everything feeds this massive inferiority complex/competition. Their entire fucking existence revolves around e-rep and likes and "hey everybody look at me!". If people just worried about their own situation and not what everyone else is doing then they would go a lot farther, whether it in terms of materialistic concerns or simply being happy.
Click to expand...

Millennials definitely created the concept of keeping up with the Joneses.
 
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