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Buffet, Bezos, and Dimon announce health insurance business

CH, I honestly am not trying to be a dick here, but you do realize that in programs such as the NHS, the "amount of care" is controlled, right? Even socialists like Bernie aren't advocating that people start getting free MRIs every day for fun. It should be the goal that ALL citizens have the ability to get adequate medical care.
 
CH, I honestly am not trying to be a dick here, but you do realize that in programs such as the NHS, the "amount of care" is controlled, right? Even socialists like Bernie aren't advocating that people start getting free MRIs every day for fun. It should be the goal that ALL citizens have the ability to get adequate medical care.

I do realize that (I actually have a graduate degree in comparative health systems and health administration). And I don't disagree with the idea that cost controls via lowered utilization is needed. But Sanders calls out "no cost share" as a key part of his plan. Thats just not serious policy talk in 2018. Its pandering.

That being said, the current Medicare for all is a far cry from the single payer of the UK. its a FFS system staffed with private providers with very limited cost controls other than setting the current fee based schedule. Its heavily subsidized by private pay. Heavily. Its just not as simple as Sanders argues. Now Medicare is moving more towards a pay for value model via MACRA. Thats great news. But even with MACRA, its far far far from how we need to pay docs and hospitals. And Macra is budget neutral...We pay some docs more and others less. Thats pandering too IMHO.

Medicare also a program entirely designed around seniors and the disabled. Thats bad policy to offer it to the masses.

We can and should have a serious debate on single payer. Lets explain what it really is. This is where it always breaks down for me. We almost imploded the health system over the ACA which impacted ~6% of americans in a meaningful way, most in a positive way. What happens when we really overhaul it in a managed care like manner. Single payer is a hyped up version of HMOs everyone hated. HMOs saved $. People just hated them.

The other hurdle for me is the movement towards privatizing public health programs (think Part C and Managed Medicaid). Why are Blue and Red states moving in this direction away from essentially single payer?

I still think the biggest hurdle is we cant sustain a system off medicare rates. The math just doesn't work. And for the record, I am all for paying less for health care. Lets take on pharma, hospital charges, doc salaries, DME prices, etc. etc.
 
Ch, why do you believe that cost sharing is so vital or important to UHC? Deductibles and co-pays are a major impediment to low income people receiving care. Even the ACA's cost sharing subsidies have reduced relative poverty among children and the elderly. From a practical standpoint, can you not understand how discouraging a $40 co-pay for clinic visits is? How many senior citizens and low income families cant afford to pay $20 a prescription for multiple prescriptions every month? This is the difference between the worthless platitude of health care "access" and actual health care.
 
Ch, why do you believe that cost sharing is so vital or important to UHC? Deductibles and co-pays are a major impediment to low income people receiving care. Even the ACA's cost sharing subsidies have reduced relative poverty among children and the elderly. From a practical standpoint, can you not understand how discouraging a $40 co-pay for clinic visits is? How many senior citizens and low income families cant afford to pay $20 a prescription for multiple prescriptions every month? This is the difference between the worthless platitude of health care "access" and actual health care.

The actuarial realities of offering no cost share for everyone is absurd. Offering free care for everyone will be a utilization disaster even with some sort of mechanism to allegedly offset. That's just basic actuarial since. I've seen first hand what this does to utilization with virtually no improvement on outcomes. So more $ spent, same outcome. Great policy idea! There is a sweet spot on cost share that balances access with outcomes.

I have no issues with an income based sliding benefit design. The ACA does it. Medicaid does it. Part D does it. So please don't say I hate low income people. I see every day the impact of large cost share of people's ability to access care. That being said, if we want to control the cost of care, people need to have some skin in the game.

Just dumb pandering policy. Its hard for me to take this seriously.
 
Cost share is just a form of utilization control. Instead of using science and not allowing/paying for people to get care that objectively they don't need or is unlikely to help them, we put cost barriers up so that poor people can't afford to utilize healthcare. A cost-sharing system that made sense would basically say "if you want to give your dying parent 20 more days of pointless ventilator care you pay for it" or "if you want the brand name pill you saw on TV instead of the generic, you pay for it". Primary care, chronic condition management, emergency/trauma care, and preventive visits should be free for everyone. Very few people are going to overutilize those products, and more primary care and prevention utilization drives costs down in the long run.
 
The actuarial realities of offering no cost share for everyone is absurd. Offering free care for everyone will be a utilization disaster even with some sort of mechanism to allegedly offset. That's just basic actuarial since. I've seen first hand what this does to utilization with virtually no improvement on outcomes. So more $ spent, same outcome. Great policy idea! There is a sweet spot on cost share that balances access with outcomes.

I have no issues with an income based sliding benefit design. The ACA does it. Medicaid does it. Part D does it. So please don't say I hate low income people. I see every day the impact of large cost share of people's ability to access care. That being said, if we want to control the cost of care, people need to have some skin in the game.

Just dumb pandering policy. Its hard for me to take this seriously.
Thats bullshit. I've personally had to pay my mothers copays when she had flu symptoms and when she thought she ws having a heart attack. You think its "pandering" to remove those? Jesus Christ man, get your nose out of the fucking spread sheets and join the real world. "Skin in the game", Jesus Christ dude. Your answer to my post is that when people actually have to pay money for something they dont use it as often. What a fucking genius response.
 
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If you really believe that "over utilization" is such a major problem with American healthcare, why don't you actually consider the different levels of health care "utilization" that need to be restricted, because those restrictions sure as hell aren't needed (or even moral to consider) across the board for standard services.
 
Thats bullshit. I've personally had to pay my mothers copays when she had flu symptoms and when she thought she ws having a heart attack. You think its "pandering" to remove those? Jesus Christ man, get your nose out of the fucking spread sheets and join the real world. "Skin in the game", Jesus Christ dude. Your answer to my post is that when people actually have to pay money for something they dont use it as often. What a fucking genius response.

I hooe your mom is feeling better. Thats never a fun experience.

That being said, I don't think its unreasonable to pay a copay in the ER given the ER abuse problem we have. Depending on your income, lets vary the amount. I think the average ER visit costs about $1200. The average copay maybe $150. Index it to income. Free ER is just not a serious policy position (I know, go fuck myself) given the cost crises we face. Time to park anecdote based policy and stick with the spreadhseets.

Cheers.
 
I'm not talking about ER visits, and I also don't think that what you think is "reasonable" ie, "skin in the game" is a relevant standard for health care access. Take your actuarial tables to a neighborhood walk in clinic and pick and choose who gets care based on who has 20 or 40 dollars in their pocket. Thats petty and stupid, not even considering the people who stayed home because they knew they didnt have the copay. People who have to go to work sick and get other people sick, people who just live with symptoms of heart disease and diabetes and self medicate, and eventually cost the health care system much more money when they need emergency care. I dont know how you can analytically consider the poverty rate in our country and still only consider my opinion as "anecdotal". Can you describe a more scientific, research based common health care scenario for the poor people i'm describing?
 
It wouldn't frustrate me so much if you weren't so disenengenious in explaining how "cost sharing" reduces health care utilization, without mentioning specifically who is discouraged and prevented from "utilizing" care because of the costs being "shared". You damn sure aren't talking about Malibu residents rhinoplasty costs.

To be even more specific, i've got plenty of upper middle class friends, and I married into an upper middle class family - i've never heard of a single one of them refusing health care due to deductibles or co-payments. But I guess that's just an anecdote.
 
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I can't think of a less progressive belief about healthcare then the belief that we should pick and choose who receives care based on how much expendable income they have. Is there any more petty conservervative shit then having people dig in their fucking couch cushions for enough loose change to visit a doctor?
 
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To summarize...

I think their should be a sliding scale on how much people pay for health care based on income. You don't. Pretty much every publicly funded program follows this model to some extent, whether it be Medicaid, Medicare, Part D, or the ACA. Its also a common practice in clinics, such as Planned Parenthood. I think this is a crucial element to controlling costs which ultimately makes care more affordable for everyone. You don't.

You suggest cost share doesn't influence on utilization. Your research/experience talking to your neighbors says it doesn't. Sorry but you are just wrong. The data overwhelmingly supports my perspective.

For some reason, you have a lot of vitriol that I just want screw people over. Despite your assertions, my thoughts here are aren't rooted in deep political beliefs. They are based on actuarial facts, experience and expertise. And pretty much every serious health policy wonk agrees. Not sure where this comes from.

A serious offer to address if I live in the real world: Join me next fall during the open enrollment for both Medicare and the ACA. Happy to take you to lunch and show how/where I spend a portion of my life working with people of all incomes to get health insurance/access to care. Open enrollment for Medicare is 10.15-12.7 and the ACA runs 11.1 - 12.15. Hopefully I will also be working on the Medicaid enrollment too and would love to share my experiences / thoughts. PM me if you'd like to set something up. This is my life's work and to suggest otherwise is misinformed.
 
You guys are talking right past each other.

One from the super technical numbers on a spreadsheet side.

One from the on the ground experience side.

Hard to have a productive conversation that way.
 
The modern-day United States is arguably the wealthiest state in world history, certainly the most well-resourced. It’s not a matter of having enough to pay for it, it’s a mater of political will.
 
The modern-day United States is arguably the wealthiest state in world history, certainly the most well-resourced. It’s not a matter of having enough to pay for it, it’s a mater of political will.

with the highest-paid doctors in the world, and the highest drug prices in the world, and the highest paid pharmaceutical sales reps in the world, and the highest paid medical equipment sales reps in the world, etc.

those people like the money they currently earn

that's a lot of sacred cows to lead to the slaughterhouse
 
Yep, and both perspectives are important. A couple of thoughts.

I appreciate CH's experience a lot, but one quibble I have. While I certainly agree that cost share affects utilization, I don't believe that utilization in and of itself is a major problem. Our utilization is largely in line with other developed countries with far cheaper and better health care systems. The primary problem is costs. I have no doubt that increasing cost sharing would decrease ED visits, and we know from the Oregon Medicaid study that increased coverage does not decrease, and in fact, may increase ED visits. But I think cost sharing is the wrong lever to press.

One, ED visits cost far too much, which needs to be addressed.

Two, many of the patients who take advantage of heavily subsidized or free care end up in the (more expensive) ED due to education and access issues, or other failures of our social safety net. Congress steps on its own dick when it does things like letting funding for community health centers lapse, where many of these patients could potentially be treated far more cheaply and stay out of the ED. Hell, cities have gone so far as to pay peoples' rent! because it is cheaper to house the homeless than continue to treatment in the ED.

Three, we have good evidence that patients are already delaying care and suffering significant hardships due to costs. And not just anecdotes like the guy who won the lottery and finally was able to afford the doctor, only find out he had stage IV cancer and died shortly thereafter, but larger datasets that shows things like spikes in health care spending after tax refunds are available, and there have been mountains of data published on the financial toxicity associated with illness in our country (an example for patients with cancer).

Finally, to this quote from above
Primary care, chronic condition management, emergency/trauma care, and preventive visits should be free for everyone. Very few people are going to overutilize those products, and more primary care and prevention utilization drives costs down in the long run.
I agree with your first sentence, but for a different reason. Many people (myself include, previously) believe that preventive care drives down costs. The data actually don't support this. There was a good piece in the Upshot about this the other day. But even if it isn't a cost saver, it's still the right thing the do. The last lines from the piece:
But money doesn’t have to be saved to make something worthwhile. Prevention improves outcomes. It makes people healthier. It improves quality of life. It often does so for a very reasonable price.

There are many good arguments for increasing our focus on prevention. Almost all have to do with improving quality, though, not reducing spending. We would do well to admit that and move forward.
 
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To summarize...

I think their should be a sliding scale on how much people pay for health care based on income. You don't. Pretty much every publicly funded program follows this model to some extent, whether it be Medicaid, Medicare, Part D, or the ACA. Its also a common practice in clinics, such as Planned Parenthood. I think this is a crucial element to controlling costs which ultimately makes care more affordable for everyone. You don't.

You suggest cost share doesn't influence on utilization. Your research/experience talking to your neighbors says it doesn't. Sorry but you are just wrong. The data overwhelmingly supports my perspective.

For some reason, you have a lot of vitriol that I just want screw people over. Despite your assertions, my thoughts here are aren't rooted in deep political beliefs. They are based on actuarial facts, experience and expertise. And pretty much every serious health policy wonk agrees. Not sure where this comes from.

A serious offer to address if I live in the real world: Join me next fall during the open enrollment for both Medicare and the ACA. Happy to take you to lunch and show how/where I spend a portion of my life working with people of all incomes to get health insurance/access to care. Open enrollment for Medicare is 10.15-12.7 and the ACA runs 11.1 - 12.15. Hopefully I will also be working on the Medicaid enrollment too and would love to share my experiences / thoughts. PM me if you'd like to set something up. This is my life's work and to suggest otherwise is misinformed.

The vitriol isn't personal, I got fired from the BCBS of NC Medicare customer service department for yelling at other departments when they refused to help customers. I've dealt with the insufficiencies of privatized health care from both sides. It was very difficult dealing with elderly and handicapped customers threatening to kill themselves when their benefits were denied. But #anecdotes it wasn't my finest moment. I definitely don't have the temperament for that job. Maybe I need to take you up on your offer just to see how you explain to ACA customers how they need to have "skin in the game".
 
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I must spread some reputation around before giving it to tiltdeac again. Good post. Caused me to search utilization rates and found this: http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2015/oct/us-health-care-from-a-global-perspective


The U.S. had fewer practicing physicians in 2013 than in the median OECD country (2.6 versus 3.2 physicians per 1,000 population). With only four per year, Americans also had fewer physician visits than the OECD median (6.5 visits). In contrast, the average Canadian had 7.7 physician visits and the average Japanese resident had 12.9 visits in 2012.

In the U.S., there were also fewer hospital beds and fewer discharges per capita than in the median OECD country.

the core disconnect between CH and MDMH views on utilization is that CH appears to believe we need cost sharing to decrease utilization across the board, but the data show that, if anything, Americans are underutilizing some of the most beneficial types of health care due to cost pressure and lack of insurance, while overutilizing the most expensive and least beneficial types of health care due to the perverse incentives in our FFS structure. From the same link:
The U.S. stood out as a top consumer of sophisticated diagnostic imaging technology. Americans had the highest per capita rates of MRI, computed tomography (CT), and positron emission tomography (PET) exams among the countries where data were available. The U.S. and Japan were among the countries with the highest number of these imaging machines.9

In addition, Americans were top consumers of prescription drugs. Based on findings from the 2013 Commonwealth Fund International Surveys, adults in the U.S. and New Zealand on average take more prescription drugs (2.2 per adult) than adults in other countries.

On top of the overutilization of imaging and drugs, those overutilized items are also way more expensive in the US than in any other country.

Utilization is a problem, but the answer is not to cost share poor and middle class people into forgoing care, it's to crack down on overutilization of things like imaging and drugs AND crack down on the profit margins of the providers of those things. That's the only thing that will bend the cost curve - unless of course you want to go down the current GOP train of thought which is simply no money = no care.
 
The easiest explanation is Americans, which includes the government, hate cheap preventative public health spending and instead opt for catastrophic event spending.
 
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