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Buffet, Bezos, and Dimon announce health insurance business

The easiest explanation is Americans, which includes the government, hate cheap preventative public health spending and instead opt for catastrophic event spending.

Cheap? Ever live in Europe? It ain't cheap, Lou. But I guess you want everyone to be proletariat slackers who drive the same car, live in the same boring flat, and suffer the same substandard toilet paper. Yes, these are the wonders of your egalitarian dreamworld.
 
The easiest explanation is Americans, which includes the government, hate cheap preventative public health spending and instead opt for catastrophic event spending.
I personally can't make a doctors appointment without losing a whole days pay, and if I ever have to miss work unexpectedly if I get sick, i'm responsible for finding my own replacement. So for any general sickness I can count on a $25 copay, $20+ bucks for prescriptions, $100 in lost wages, and the pressure of managing my absence with my boss and co-workers. Most people who work hourly during the week have the same situation.
 
I must spread some reputation around before giving it to tiltdeac again. Good post. Caused me to search utilization rates and found this: http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2015/oct/us-health-care-from-a-global-perspective




the core disconnect between CH and MDMH views on utilization is that CH appears to believe we need cost sharing to decrease utilization across the board, but the data show that, if anything, Americans are underutilizing some of the most beneficial types of health care due to cost pressure and lack of insurance, while overutilizing the most expensive and least beneficial types of health care due to the perverse incentives in our FFS structure. From the same link:


On top of the overutilization of imaging and drugs, those overutilized items are also way more expensive in the US than in any other country.

Utilization is a problem, but the answer is not to cost share poor and middle class people into forgoing care, it's to crack down on overutilization of things like imaging and drugs AND crack down on the profit margins of the providers of those things. That's the only thing that will bend the cost curve - unless of course you want to go down the current GOP train of thought which is simply no money = no care.

Good post. I feel like a broken record but I'm not for over-loading anyone who can't afford care. I think I've been pretty consistent on that point. I'm just saying some token amount seems like a reasonable approach given the total spend issue we have. Healthcare is expensive and creating transparency around the cost is a good thing IMHO. I also think removing cost share would likely spike utilization. Keep in mind most insurance (public/private) has cost share. Eliminating that could (and likely would) spike utilization.

These cost sharing rules can also redirect care to the more appropriate location, provider type, etc. I'm not making that point well but that's at the crux of the issue and aligns with the bolded point made here. We use more intensive, more costly care. Cost share is one way to reduce that by incenting people to use more appropriate (urgent care v. ER) or less costly care (generic v. brand).

I also completely agree with looking at margins....But I want to look at the whole health care dollar margins vs. cherry picking certain ones. Lets apply the margin caps to the entire supply chain.

I've found that many many people generally think there is some health care nirvana out there and IMHO unfortunately there isn't. That's why I cant take Sanders too seriously. Single payer could eventually work in the US but lets understand the trade-offs. He wont acknowledge there are any. And its certainly not as simple as "Medicare for all".
 
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Good post. I feel like a broken record but I'm not for over-loading anyone who can't afford care. I think I've been pretty consistent on that point. I'm just saying some token amount seems like a reasonable approach given the total spend issue we have. Healthcare is expensive and creating transparency around the cost is a good thing IMHO. I also think removing cost share would likely spike utilization. Keep in mind most insurance (public/private) has cost share. Eliminating that could (and likely would) spike utilization.

These cost sharing rules can also redirect care to the more appropriate location, provider type, etc. I'm not making that point well but that's at the crux of the issue and aligns with the bolded point made here. We use more intensive, more costly care. Cost share is one way to reduce that by incenting people to use more appropriate (urgent care v. ER) or less costly care (generic v. brand).

I also completely agree with looking at margins....But I want to look at the whole health care dollar margins vs. cherry picking certain ones. Lets apply the margin caps to the entire supply chain.

I've found that many many people generally think there is some health care nirvana out there and IMHO unfortunately there isn't. That's why I cant take Sanders too seriously. Single payer could eventually work in the US but lets understand the trade-offs. He wont acknowledge there are any. And its certainly not as simple as "Medicare for all".

$40 copays don’t create transparency around health care costs. For many people its a barrier to health care.

I’m happy to have “skin in the game”, because I can afford it. But many people can’t. And then they end up in the ER.
 
Saying utilization would "spike" by removing cost sharing is really just saying that if basic health care services didnt have up-front costs, many more people would suddenly use them. Who are the people who would make up this "spike in utilization" and why don't we want them receiving care? That's not emergency room visits. Thats people actually using the health care benefits that are supposedly being provided for them. That's regular people being able to see a specialist, a dermatologist or an orthapedist, without having to pay 40-50-60 bucks up front.
 
I want to give CH the benefit of the doubt, but first he has to stop making these ridiculous implications that low income people are somehow more frivolous with their health care benefits than wealthier people.

I made this point on the other thread - a person who works hourly, like myself, very often has to sacrifice a whole days wages to make a doctors appointment, and then we have to fight with our managers and bosses just to get that time off. Then we have to get transportation there, and spend even more money for prescriptions and medical supplies. Just as a flat tax is regressive, these costs are a greater barrier to the poor than to others. If health care utilization needs to be controlled, it needs to be done in a way that doesn't adversely discourage poor people from accessing basic services.
 
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Saying utilization would "spike" by removing cost sharing is really just saying that if basic health care services didnt have up-front costs, many more people would suddenly use them. Who are the people who would make up this "spike in utilization" and why don't we want them receiving care? That's not emergency room visits. Thats people actually using the health care benefits that are supposedly being provided for them. That's regular people being able to see a specialist, a dermatologist or an orthapedist, without having to pay 40-50-60 bucks up front.

That's the point I'm trying to make too. Basic care is not overutilized in this country, it's underutilized. "Spiking" it would be a good thing.
 
Saying utilization would "spike" by removing cost sharing is really just saying that if basic health care services didnt have up-front costs, many more people would suddenly use them. Who are the people who would make up this "spike in utilization" and why don't we want them receiving care? That's not emergency room visits. Thats people actually using the health care benefits that are supposedly being provided for them. That's regular people being able to see a specialist, a dermatologist or an orthapedist, without having to pay 40-50-60 bucks up front.

This is just wrong. I’m sorry but it’s just factually incorrect. It’s a fact that utilization goes up more than is clinically necessary when there is no cost. Society spends more than it should. That’s a bad outcome.

I don’t want anyone getting care that isn’t medically necessary. I don’t want anyone getting care at an inappropriate location when there are clinically more appropriate places to go.

That is unless they want to pay for it.

As a public health advocate I think that’s a pretty reasonable approach. Hell its essentially single payer.

Edited to add that again I’ll add my support of a sliding scale based on income. Don’t want to accused of hating the poor. And fwiw I think my position is more liberal than the ACA on many fronts.

Cheers!
 
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This is just wrong. I’m sorry but it’s just factually incorrect. It’s a fact that utilization goes up more than is clinically necessary when there is no cost. Society spends more than it should. That’s a bad outcome.

I don’t want anyone getting care that isn’t medically necessary. I don’t want anyone getting care at an inappropriate location when there are clinically more appropriate places to go.

That is unless they want to pay for it.

As a public health advocate I think that’s a pretty reasonable approach. Hell its essentially single payer.

Edited to add that again I’ll add my support of a sliding scale based on income. Don’t want to accused of hating the poor. And fwiw I think my position is more liberal than the ACA on many fronts.

Cheers!
How the fuck does anyone but a doctor know what is clinically necessary? I'm sorry, but if you want ALL people to get standard preventative care, you just have to live with the economic inefficiency. If you need poor people to stay home just to balance your books, then fuck your books.
 
And regarding your sliding scale, if you want to remove the economic cost sharing barriers for poor people, as Bernie and I do, then what are we still arguing about?
 
It's kind of a baffling position. Apparently the goal is to have cost sharing to create cost transparency and convince people to use less care. But we're going to slide that down to a nominal/$0 cost for the poor and presumably lower middle class.

Ok - that means that a huge percentage of the country (which is also the sickest, fattest, smoking-est percentage) is going to be paying a nominal/$0 cost, which will drive up their utilization. that's a good thing in my opinion, but it defeats the original purpose of the cost-sharing.

Rich people are going to buy all the care they want, cost share or no.

That means that the middle class/upper middle class is the only group getting shafted by the CHDeac cost-sharing plan, just like we get shafted by pretty much everything else from cost of college to tax policy. thanks but no thanks.

How about instead we go single payer and use the government's monopsony power to drastically lower the obscene prices we pay for care? and at the same time, address the utilization problem by restricting access to medically dubious care? I.e exactly how every other civilized country does things?
 
It's kind of a baffling position. Apparently the goal is to have cost sharing to create cost transparency and convince people to use less care. But we're going to slide that down to a nominal/$0 cost for the poor and presumably lower middle class.

Ok - that means that a huge percentage of the country (which is also the sickest, fattest, smoking-est percentage) is going to be paying a nominal/$0 cost, which will drive up their utilization. that's a good thing in my opinion, but it defeats the original purpose of the cost-sharing.

Rich people are going to buy all the care they want, cost share or no.

That means that the middle class/upper middle class is the only group getting shafted by the CHDeac cost-sharing plan, just like we get shafted by pretty much everything else from cost of college to tax policy. thanks but no thanks.

How about instead we go single payer and use the government's monopsony power to drastically lower the obscene prices we pay for care? and at the same time, address the utilization problem by restricting access to medically dubious care? I.e exactly how every other civilized country does things?

Let me clarify. Build a system that indexes OOP costs to income levels. Hell, we have this for the ACA around premiums. Based on your income, you can only pay up to x% for premium. Take that same concept and apply it to what care costs (not hard math). Use benefits to incent the right care at the right place at the right time. its crazy that I pay the same OOP for an office visit than someone making $30,000. Charge me more. Just charge them an amount that makes them think about what care they access, where they access it and when they access it.

I'll save my thoughts on monopsonies for another day, other than to say, in our FFS world, a huge cut to what we pay will have some interesting consequences.

An alternate it to just let Bezos solve it.

Cheers (literally).
 
It's kind of a baffling position. Apparently the goal is to have cost sharing to create cost transparency and convince people to use less care. But we're going to slide that down to a nominal/$0 cost for the poor and presumably lower middle class.

Ok - that means that a huge percentage of the country (which is also the sickest, fattest, smoking-est percentage) is going to be paying a nominal/$0 cost, which will drive up their utilization. that's a good thing in my opinion, but it defeats the original purpose of the cost-sharing.

Rich people are going to buy all the care they want, cost share or no.

That means that the middle class/upper middle class is the only group getting shafted by the CHDeac cost-sharing plan, just like we get shafted by pretty much everything else from cost of college to tax policy. thanks but no thanks.

How about instead we go single payer and use the government's monopsony power to drastically lower the obscene prices we pay for care? and at the same time, address the utilization problem by restricting access to medically dubious care? I.e exactly how every other civilized country does things?

how are those who are currently collecting payment going to react when we drastically lower the obscene prices we pay for care?
 
how are those who are currently collecting payment going to react when we drastically lower the obscene prices we pay for care?
Single payer would obviously take years
to gradually go into effect, so the economies and markets built around health care would have time to adjust - but there would still be drastic changes - many businesses would close, many private practices would consolidate. The hope and goal is that the federal government could sufficiently subsidize care in a way that would bring private providers to currently underserved cash poor areas, while also reducing the inefficiency of excess private providers in cash rich areas. In America we understand health care as a capitalist product that wealthy people, urban and suburban, have more access to, and use more frequently than poor people. Somehow we have to undo that infrastructure. Health care access/providers need to become geographically normalized in the same way that utilities, and public services like schools and law enforcement are.
 
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I personally can't make a doctors appointment without losing a whole days pay, and if I ever have to miss work unexpectedly if I get sick, i'm responsible for finding my own replacement. So for any general sickness I can count on a $25 copay, $20+ bucks for prescriptions, $100 in lost wages, and the pressure of managing my absence with my boss and co-workers. Most people who work hourly during the week have the same situation.
You seem like a smart guy with a good degree in the best job market of our lifetime. Why don’t you get a better job or go back to school and do something you enjoy?

Shit I graduated with a questionable degree in a terrible job market with average intelligence and never had to put up with that stuff from an employer.
 
You seem like a smart guy with a good degree in the best job market of our lifetime. Why don’t you get a better job or go back to school and do something you enjoy?

Shit I graduated with a questionable degree in a terrible job market with average intelligence and never had to put up with that stuff from an employer.

Why should anybody have to put up with that?
 
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-overuse-healthcare-20140528-column.html

Do people really overuse healthcare when it's free?

"...Let's start with the raw numbers. There's no evidence that countries that provide free or low-cost healthcare to their citizens, even those who provided it to all their citizens, end up spending more. Quite the contrary."

"...It does appear to be true that families in consumer-directed plans do cut back on healthcare services, at least at first. The question, however, is which services they reduce, and whether their choices are wise. A 2012 study by the Rand Corp. put this question at the forefront. It found that families on high-deductible plans cut spending in part by skipping such important preventive treatments as "childhood vaccinations...mammography, cervical cancer screening, and colorectal cancer screening" as well as "blood tests for glucose and cholesterol for diabetics."

If patients "skimp on highly valuable services that can prevent more costly problems later, the savings may be short-lived," Rand concluded.

Similar findings come from studies compiled by Aaron Carroll, professor of pediatrics at Indiana University. One examined asthma treatment among low-income families, and showed that "families with higher levels of cost-sharing were significantly more likely to delay or avoid going to the office or emergency room for their child's asthma," Carroll reports. "They were more likely to avoid care."

Another study found that even modest increases in co-pay and other cost-sharing among Medicarepatients saw increases in the number and length of hospitalizations, especially among patients with chronic conditions. The reason was obvious: These patients deferred or skipped tests and treatments to save money, resulting ultimately in more severe episodes of their illnesses. Carroll's conclusion: "Cost-sharing is bad for those who need care the most."

As he points out, skin-in-the-game systems don't have to be blunt instruments; in some countries where they're the rule, patients with chronic or severe conditions are exempted. But you rarely hear that option being explored by consumer-directed healthcare advocates in the U.S. 

What's most dismaying about simple-mindedly applying market economics to healthcare -- as Levitt has done -- is the failure to recognize the complexity of healthcare. The fact is that drivers of significant cost in the system are those that are least susceptible to the dollars-and-cents family budgeting that might respond to skin-in-the-game rules. It's one thing to skip a visit to the doctor for a mild ankle sprain -- that's not the sort of thing that adds much to U.S. spending, even in the aggregate.

But there's little evidence that decisions on cardiac or cancer care are affected by cost-sharing -- or if it is, whether it leads to the right decisions in the long term. As a British reader of Noah Smith's blogcommented: "I have never woken up and thought: 'It's free, let's have some chemotherapy.'"  
 
The LA Times article is a fairly one-sided view of the 2012 RAND study. It failed to note, as outlined in the study, the following:

Surprisingly, the drop in preventive care occurred even though most preventive testing is fully covered under consumer-directed plans. It is worth noting that under the Affordable Care Act, preventive care must be fully covered in all plans; however, almost all consumer-directed plans already offer such coverage. To gain insight into whether these effects were worse for vulnerable populations, the team also analyzed whether reductions in high-value care were greater for lower-income or chronically ill patients. They found no reductions that were greater for these groups than for non-vulnerable enrollees in consumer-directed plans.


One of the primary researchers of that RAND study, AM Haviland, subsequently has published other research on the subject, including a study from 2017 which concludes:

Being offered a CDHP or enrolling in a CDHP had little or no effect on cancer screening rates but individuals increase screenings prior to enrolling in a CDHP...We find no effect of CDHP offer or enrollment on breast, cervical, or colon cancer screening rates over the entire post period...Overall, our results suggest that broad based reductions in preventive care by CDHP enrollees at large employers are not occurring
 
As far as I can tell from that second more recent study, it's limited to measuring preventative screenings for cancer. Has nothing to do with as-necessary doctor and clinic visits.
As far as I know, the ACA and Medicare still have large baseline co-pays for insulin, diabetes test strips, and asthma medications.

Fuck, drive to your local Wal-Mart intersection and check out the "We buy Diabetes Test Strips" signs stuck in the ground. Awesome health care system we have where people are driven to build a re-sale market for goddamn diabetes supplies. "Skin in the game" jesus christ.
 
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Diabetes is a pretty shitty example since in 95% of the cases it’s 100% preventable. So for the 30 million or so people that let themselves get to the point (which doesn’t happen overnight) seems fair to make them pay.
 
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