Chat thread 95: old people can't hang anymore

[wakephan09]

I read one earlier this year that literally ended with "you could do worse".

Like, come on!

 

[YoungBuck95]

but did they say you could do better?

 

[wakephan09]

how do you tell a student no? seems like an extremely awkward convo. I had a handful of profs who ended up teaching multiple courses or those that I worked closely enough with that I knew would write me a good rec but I can't imagine the feeling of not knowing who you could count on

It can be very awkward. It's most difficult when a student asks really late in the process and I know if I say "no" they can't find anybody else at such a late date. Here are some of my strategies, though if y'all can think of more I'll use 'em!

1) suggest they should find someone closer to their discipline, more senior, or that taught them more recently or in a more appropriate course

2) point to an obvious weakness in my experience teaching or mentoring them to explain why I can't write a strong letter. I try to choose something that was entirely in their control and also not inherent to their personality or abilities.

And my secret weapon:

3) tell them "no" using one of the strategies above, but then offer to read and provide feedback on their materials. It's more work for me, but then I can improve their application and feel better about saying no without having to write a mediocre letter.

 

[TownieDeac]

phan and others: do you see activities like letter writing or peer review as core to your job duties or as unrecognized and unpaid labor you do because of a sense of commitment to the field?

 

[wakephan09]

phan and others: do you see activities like letter writing or peer review as core to your job duties or as unrecognized and unpaid labor you do because of a sense of commitment to the field?

My opinion: letter writing and peer review are core job duties for permanent faculty -- "service to the field".

For non-permanent faculty, graduate student teachers, adjunct labor, postdocs, VAPs, contingent lecturers, etc., I wouldn't really fault them for thinking of letter writing as unpaid labor. (They don't often do peer review activity). I do it out of a sense of commitment to my field, yes, and also a sense of commitment to my students and their futures.

 

[deacdiggler]

phan and others: do you see activities like letter writing or peer review as core to your job duties or as unrecognized and unpaid labor you do because of a sense of commitment to the field?

or as plama calls it, SLAVERY

 

[mako1331]

You people should try writing recommendations for high school students.

 

[TownieDeac]

Thanks phan. There’s a budding movement in the sciences for journals to fund honoraria for peer review above what they currently spend for journals that pay for editorial board services. I know my dad, who has done hundreds of hours of this work unpaid over his career, is kinda ambivalent about it, but I could see given where we are in today’s labor moment and academia, where it could be considered valuable and worth investigating. But I wonder if it is just field specific and not all fields could afford to do such things.

 

[birdman]

phan and others: do you see activities like letter writing or peer review as core to your job duties or as unrecognized and unpaid labor you do because of a sense of commitment to the field?

Core job duties

ETA, to say, I am not rewarded for these activities other than a pat on the back from a journal or the appreciation from the students I support. I probably view them as a core job duty because I have a sense of commitment to my field.

 

[Kory]

grad student so yes another element of unpaid labor

 

[birdman]

Thanks phan. There’s a budding movement in the sciences for journals to fund honoraria for peer review above what they currently spend for journals that pay for editorial board services. I know my dad, who has done hundreds of hours of this work unpaid over his career, is kinda ambivalent about it, but I could see given where we are in today’s labor moment and academia, where it could be considered valuable and worth investigating. But I wonder if it is just field specific and not all fields could afford to do such things.

Academic publishing, at least in ecology/wildlife/conservation is ridiculous.

 

[Louis Gossett Jr]

I see the letter writing as a waste of everyone’s time not because of the letter itself, individuals, etc... more just the overall premise of a letter of recommendation. Especially coming from someone that also has to read letters of recommendation. Like unless you are a complete asshole you aren’t writing a recommendation letter that’s negative. So it’s just always a positive flowing recommendation, throw in the idea that depending on the person (especially a super senior well known person) the letter will most likely just be ghost written by the student themself. It all then just comes off as I know this person, with these credentials. I would much rather do those recommendation letters that are actually question prompts that require a specific answer to for a student.

 

[KennyRogersRoast]

Last week the dean of the University of Texas School of Law emailed a letter of recommendation to me on behalf of an applicant. He said he was not asked by the applicant, but he knew the applicant wanted the job and wanted to recommend him. Have any of you done anything like that? I have to say it carried a lot of weight because we have received thousands of applications from UT law over the years and nothing like that has ever happened.

 

[WRS]

Just got the second Pfizer JAB. White boy summer commence.

 

[PhDeac]

phan and others: do you see activities like letter writing or peer review as core to your job duties or as unrecognized and unpaid labor you do because of a sense of commitment to the field?

I agree that both are core job duties for faculty that count as "service to the field." Some faculty put the number of letters they write in their annual evaluations. Most put that they reviewed for XYZ journals in a given year. In my experience, it doesn't move the needle for faculty but we're expected to do it.

I wouldn't consider them the same thing though. Letter writing for grad programs or academic/research jobs helps the next generation of scholars. Letter writing or being a reference for undergrads helps a student you already have a relationship with.

Peer review is unpaid labor on behalf of a journal whose main objective is to sell research to the educational and research institutions who pay scholars to do that research in the first place. I still do a few reviews a year when I'm sure I can make the deadline. My main research area is pretty narrow so if I see an article in the same broad area, I'm eager to review it and see what other reviewers think.

Thanks phan. There’s a budding movement in the sciences for journals to fund honoraria for peer review above what they currently spend for journals that pay for editorial board services. I know my dad, who has done hundreds of hours of this work unpaid over his career, is kinda ambivalent about it, but I could see given where we are in today’s labor moment and academia, where it could be considered valuable and worth investigating. But I wonder if it is just field specific and not all fields could afford to do such things.

This is a good idea and one of several reforms I'd like to see in academic publishing.

 

[TimmyClutch]

Last week the dean of the University of Texas School of Law emailed a letter of recommendation to me on behalf of an applicant. He said he was not asked by the applicant, but he knew the applicant wanted the job and wanted to recommend him. Have any of you done anything like that? I have to say it carried a lot of weight because we have received thousands of applications from UT law over the years and nothing like that has ever happened.

Ya but me and you shoot the shit on message boards, that’s much more personal than some dean.

(I’m in my second week on a new job and am not looking to move yet unless your salaries are outrageously high)

 

[wakephan09]

Last week the dean of the University of Texas School of Law emailed a letter of recommendation to me on behalf of an applicant. He said he was not asked by the applicant, but he knew the applicant wanted the job and wanted to recommend him. Have any of you done anything like that? I have to say it carried a lot of weight because we have received thousands of applications from UT law over the years and nothing like that has ever happened.

Unfortunately, Texas has had a couple of scandals related to practices like that (mostly in admissions) for donors and those with political connections.

Not saying that's the case, but I do wonder how the dean of the law school knows about the professional aspirations of individual students.

Anyways, the closest I've come to this is conversations with colleagues at other schools about applicants and students. Everybody knows everybody. For people with influence (i.e. not me) I know for certain that admissions and appointments have been sorted in this way. Old boys club sometimes for sure

 

[wakephan09]

Though it is really strange and sometimes uncomfortable to be asked to evaluate colleagues and friends. Usually those just slightly too distant to want to abstain.

 

[freakadeac]

It’s such a great feeling when you recommend someone for a job and they end up getting the job

 

[PhDeac]

Though it is really strange and sometimes uncomfortable to be asked to evaluate colleagues and friends. Usually those just slightly too distant to want to abstain.

I know prominent scholars who reserve a few weeks in the summer every year to write tenure and promotion letters. They’re top people in their fields and they just know they’re going to have to do 5-10 a year.