Christianity: Trying to disprove homosexuality for the past 2000 years

[pourdeac]

And the bulk of the science says it's not a choice.

That's simply not true. The science says that preferences are hardwired. That does not mean people can't also have a choice and overcome what is hardwired.

Science is also showing that racial preference and associated behaviors are also hardwired, probably resulting from strong tribal identity mechanisms. That implies racism isn't a choice so you might want to be careful before claiming something hardwired can't be changed.

 

[RJKarl]

That's not true at all. The brain is like an onion. It evolved in layers. There are many behaviors that are hardwired in many lower parts of our brain, but cognition gives us the ability to choose and change that behavior. The question really is, when that happens is the original wiring remodeled or have we bypassed it with a new set of higher level connections/synapses. What we'd really like to find out is what it takes to override or rewire hardwired behaviors. There are many such behaviors that are extremely destructive.

And there it is. The real bigotry comes out.

Ther are amillions and millions of gay people in this country who lead exemplary lives. They have good jobs, contribute to the community and have wonderful families.

If that's "destructive" in your world, please let there be millions and millions of like them.

 

[pourdeac]

I see what you're saying, but aren't most the hardwired/lower brain parts of our brain executed without the rest of our brain having to think about it? Our heart beats, our body knows to breath when we're sleeping, etc.

I don't consider being gay as "extremely destructive".

Like I said, it's an onion with many layers of executive control. You're talking about something at the very core. I'm not sure how much control we have over those aspects, but some people claim to have significant control over heartbeat or blood pressure. People claim to be able to sit down and just choose to die too. So even with the most basic functions there is probably some degree of choice.

I wasn't saying being gay is destructive, but people are hardwired to kill others or molest children. People are probably hardwired to be addicts, and the wiring definitely hardens once addicted. A more general pervasive one is probably the racism issue I pointed out in my last post that people think is due to tribal identity. "Welcome the familiar, attack the non-familiar" was probably strongly reinforced in evolution, yes?

We welcome many changes in hardwired behavior, and for good reasons.

 

[ProfessorDeac]

That's simply not true. The science says that preferences are hardwired. That does not mean people can't also have a choice and overcome what is hardwired.

Science is also showing that racial preference and associated behaviors are also hardwired, probably resulting from strong tribal identity mechanisms. That implies racism isn't a choice so you might want to be careful before claiming something hardwired can't be changed.

Good point about racism. You're right, what little I know about the science does suggest we're all hard-wired to be racists. Hence the need for extra efforts to overcome the effects of our hard-wiring. If we can't change our subconscious racism, we have to do everything we can to make sure it doesn't manifest itself in racist behavior. If we do figure out a way to change it, all the better.

I think this thread is suffering from a lack of definition of "hard-wired" vs. "changeable." And that's because those are slippery concepts in general.

 

[RJKarl]

Like I said, it's an onion with many layers of executive control. You're talking about something at the very core. I'm not sure how much control we have over those aspects, but some people claim to have significant control over heartbeat or blood pressure. People claim to be able to sit down and just choose to die too. So even with the most basic functions there is probably some degree of choice.

I wasn't saying being gay is destructive, but people are hardwired to kill others or molest children. People are probably hardwired to be addicts, and the wiring definitely hardens once addicted. A more general pervasive one is probably the racism issue I pointed out in my last post that people think is due to tribal identity. "Welcome the familiar, attack the non-familiar" was probably strongly reinforced in evolution, yes?

We welcome many changes in hardwired behavior, and for good reasons.

Why would we "welcome" changing being gay?

In fact if you believe in God and it is hardwired and you try to change it, would be akin to telling God that He/She was wrong.

 

[pourdeac]

I think this thread is suffering from a lack of definition of "hard-wired" vs. "changeable." And that's because those are slippery concepts in general.

I think hard-wired as used by most means a genetically imparted behavior, and changeable a genetically imparted behavior that can be changed by the environment. What we're finding out is all behaviors can be changed, so it's not either/or. The hardwired behavioral driver will always be there, but we have the ability to choose to change it.

 

[ConnorEl]

I agree that behavior is not typically "either/or" but often (always???) both/and.


Endeavoring to avoid simplistic absolutes, I think there seems to be room to recognize that all people with attractions towards members of their own gender are not happy to have those attractions. So how are these folks best helped? But asserting to them that the must should accept their "hardwiring" and embrace their gayness? Or, alternatively, by indicating they must should deny/repress/reject/change their gayness?

Maybe there's not a single right answer.

 

[pourdeac]

Maybe there's not a single right answer.

No doubt. Some people are choosing to go the other way too (hetero to homo), which is probably what would upset the religious more than anything.

 

[Milhouse]

I agree that behavior is not typically "either/or" but often (always???) both/and.


Endeavoring to avoid simplistic absolutes, I think there seems to be room to recognize that all people with attractions towards members of their own gender are not happy to have those attractions. So how are these folks best helped? But asserting to them that the must should accept their "hardwiring" and embrace their gayness? Or, alternatively, by indicating they must should deny/repress/reject/change their gayness?

Maybe there's not a single right answer.

i think they are "helped" by being left alone to do whatever they want. gay/not gay/bi/whatever. none of my business

 

[ConnorEl]

Fine, you leave them alone.

But many out there are seeking help and advice. And "one size" probably doesn't fit all.

 

[Go]

Can we all just agree that hot lesbians going at it, is hot? That feels like common ground to me. I don't want to convert that.

girlfriendsfilms.com

Its a game changer.

 

[Go]

Also to the original post, thanks for the blanket statement in the thread title.

 

[ProfessorDeac]

I think hard-wired as used by most means a genetically imparted behavior, and changeable a genetically imparted behavior that can be changed by the environment. What we're finding out is all behaviors can be changed, so it's not either/or. The hardwired behavioral driver will always be there, but we have the ability to choose to change it.

Ok I agree with this. Perhaps the difference we're missing is between preferences and behavior. Anyone can change his behavior. I think the radical thing about this study is that it's claiming to change people's preferences.

 

[bmoneydeac]

i'm trying to picture the type of person (moonz?) that would tag this thread "i fucked god in the ass". honestly, i just don't get your motivation. i'm not offended, just curious why someone would tag that.

 

[pourdeac]

Ok I agree with this. Perhaps the difference we're missing is between preferences and behavior. Anyone can change his behavior. I think the radical thing about this study is that it's claiming to change people's preferences.

That just gets to the issue of what happens to the brain when you alter behavior. Can the original "hardwire" simply get rewired? Do new synapses form somewhere else that bypasses the hardwire, effectively eliminating original behavior to some sort of degree? The latter would then depend on how strong the original urge is and how well an individual can remodel their behavior.

Based on what I've seen with addiction, it probably that depends on the individual. Some people can quit cold turkey because the "hardwire" isn't that strong. Some need more effort but can still effectively eliminate drug craving. Others just learn to deal with the drug craving and behave differently to avoid drug taking. Others can never change their drug seeking behavior and just use. Those are probably points along a continuum.

IMO the entire "homosexual to heterosexual" change is probably very similar. For some it's easy to do because the homosexual urge while dominant isn't that strong. Others want to change and it takes some effort, but if chosen they can effectively change preference (which is what you are talking about). Others never change preference but choose new behaviors that avoid their underlying preference. Yet others could never change regardless of effort.

 

[94Deac]

i'm trying to picture the type of person (moonz?) that would tag this thread "i fucked god in the ass". honestly, i just don't get your motivation. i'm not offended, just curious why someone would tag that.

Just to dispel anyone thinking otherwise, those tags do not come from me. I do make some smart assed tags, but those aren't my style at all.

Carry on...

 

[deac04]

Ok I agree with this. Perhaps the difference we're missing is between preferences and behavior. Anyone can change his behavior. I think the radical thing about this study is that it's claiming to change people's preferences.

Most homosexuals go through their life fighting the "hardwire" (if that's what you want to call it; not sure exactly what all you mean by it, but I'll use your term for now). They have been conditioned from birth by society, religions, and the majority opinions that what they feel is wrong. Many in the closet homosexuals have family, friends, and colleagues that make fun of the lifestyle, use derogatory terms loosely and treat homosexuals as second class citizens.

The ones that undergo this type of "therapy" are subject to having all that they have been conditioned to believe by society brought back up and used to try to change their behaviors. They have been in that place before where they tried to conform and be attracted to members of the opposite sex; it's not a foreign idea to them.

If you put 100 people in a room who loved chocolate and you lectured them all day every day on how bad chocolate was and how it is an abomination and that eating chocolate will cause them eternal punishment, I'm sure 23% would denounce chocolate eating behaviors a few years down the road. And chocolate is widely accepted by society; imagine if it were looked down upon.

I believe that behaviors can be changed. I do not think it is ethically correct to subject someone to therapy to try to change their sexual orientation. The reality is that there are parents of homosexual children and families of homosexual adults who "force" them to go to this therapy to be cured of their sexual orientation. It is a sickening thought to me that in today's society that this occurs. Whether or not their behavior changes, the person is always going to be the same and there is no treatment that can ever change that.

 

[HeavyPetter]

Chocolate makes you fat, but I'm a little choc-curious.

 

[deac04]

Chocolate makes you fat, but I'm a little choc-curious.

Be carefuly, it's a very slippery slope. I was a little Bzzz-curious and how did that turn out? 24 losses and 432 beers later, I was cured. Never again, my friend.

 

[HeavyPetter]

Be carefuly, it's a very slippery slope. I was a little Bzzz-curious and how did that turn out? 24 losses and 432 beers later, I was cured. Never again, my friend.

Looks like we'll all be taking it up the Bzzz for awhile now.