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CNN Townhall with Parkland Students, Rubio, NRA and others

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/03/in-defense-of-gunsplaining/

One gets the impression that all too many members of the media and all too many activists don’t want to know anything more about guns. They’ve made the decision they need to make — guns are bad — and the rest is a distraction. To them, the gun-control argument isn’t a technical argument at all. It’s fundamentally a moral argument, and in this moral argument the actual effectiveness of any given law is less important than its intent — or at least its ability in some way to chip away at American gun culture.

Yet Americans don’t give away their freedoms so willingly. And they’re especially unwilling to limit their liberties in response to arguments based in ignorance, sprinkled with condescension and moral superiority. So law-abiding gun-owners respond by “gunsplaining,” and they find that when they gunsplain, they tend to win. Ignorance is a plague, and the gun-rights community is eager to provide the cure.
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unfortunately incrementalism wont work, we have been doing it since the Kennedy assassination

the heart of the problem is that the only policy that could make a serious difference is large-scale confiscation, and that's impossible
 
PhDeac said:
But you didn’t. You made an unsupported claim that a bunch of children who survived a mass shooting are trying to take people’s guns even though almost every position statement by every kid who was interviewed on Saturday included the phrase “we aren’t trying to take people’s guns away.”

Try having an honest discussion instead of misrepresenting a bunch of kids for the sake of powerful gun owners.
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Please show where I said anyone was looking to take anyone’s guns. I merely observed that the pro reform crowd was engaging in intellectual bullying (which is not ironically the exact tactic taken against me - which is what made me laugh). And then I asked for the more specific arguments and commented on them as honestly as I could based upon my opinion.

In return I get posts like this. I have almost deceased from posting here because it seems the only conversations in which you don’t end up in message board defense mode are those where I agree with the majority. It is impossible to have civil dissent. I gave it a whirl and look and the visceral response. The irony is I really don’t dissent to gun reform. I think we need change. I understand the kids agenda, their tactics and think they are admirable. I also think they don’t really know anything about gun reform other than gun=bad. But that doesn’t mean their movement is useless.

But I’m not going to continue to waste my team beating my head up against a wall when intellectual people like you PH intentionally mischaracterize my POV. Not once did I even come close to saying that a bunch of children are trying to take peoples guns. I don’t care one bit about the NRA. Dont own a gun, never been a member, and am not even particular conservative when it comes to gun ownership.
 
As a last point, these are the kind of tweets I see all the time. Basically - denounce the NRA or resign. That isn’t a call for dialogue. That is a demand for submission.

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I don’t think it is morally wrong to demand for submission. If it is a moral argument then one person is right and the other is wrong. But let’s not pretend a compromise is being asked for (or desired). Submission won’t happen (nor do I think it is desired). The real goal here is political maneuvering imo. This again is not a moral comment just a comment in strategy. This will be used a s apolitical sledgehammer against anyone who will not denounce the NRA (which is a vast majority of Republicans). It could end up being a great strategy. I apologize in advance if my opinion doesn’t line up perfectly with the rest of the board. Please feel free to through curses and mischaracterizations my way once again .
 
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The “bullying” you are perceiving is more a result of the NRA’s unwillingness to cede even a single inch of ground for decades. They abandoned discourse long ago on this issue. They set the tone of all or nothing you are hearing from protestors now. Then they point to signs wanting to ban the 2A, take guns, etc. and say “see, I told you so!”
 
the problem is that in the current situation the impossible solution - confiscating a significant number of guns and outlawing private ownership of many types - is the only one that might promise a significant reduction in deaths from firearms

while all of the proposed incremental changes combined would do little to reduce gun deaths
 
Wrangor, I thought your “surrender or die” characterization referred to surrendering guns. Fair assumption given your wording.

07 is dead on with his take on how it’s silly for the NRA to claim victim status. They’ve been the political bully for years. This is the scene of the film where all the kids in the school yard stand up together to oppose the bully.
 
sailordeac said:
the problem is that in the current situation the impossible solution - confiscating a significant number of guns and outlawing private ownership of many types - is the only one that might promise a significant reduction in deaths from firearms

while all of the proposed incremental changes combined would do little to reduce gun deaths
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Why try?
 
to feel better about yourself? to feel morally superior?

the NRA says enforce existing gun laws better

the dems say pass all kinds of incremental legislation expanding the limits on gun ownership

both will have the same result, little if any reduction in death by firearm
 
PhDeac said:
Wrangor, I thought your “surrender or die” characterization referred to surrendering guns. Fair assumption given your wording.

07 is dead on with his take on how it’s silly for the NRA to claim victim status. They’ve been the political bully for years. This is the scene of the film where all the kids in the school yard stand up together to oppose the bully.
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I think ‘wrong assumption’ is actually the phrase you were looking for (as opposed to fair).

NRA is a bully as well. Which is why I wasn’t making a value judgement against the protests.
 
Perhaps I’m naive but I refuse to accept that increasing the number of guns inside a school will decrease the number of people killed by guns inside a school.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Perhaps I’m naive but I refuse to accept that increasing the number of guns inside a school will decrease the number of people killed by guns inside a school.
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Plus school gun deaths are just a tiny portion of the issue. We shouldn’t just ignore the other 99% of deaths that won’t be prevented by arming teachers.
 
Wrangor said:
I think ‘wrong assumption’ is actually the phrase you were looking for (as opposed to fair).

NRA is a bully as well. Which is why I wasn’t making a value judgement against the protests.
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Other than judging the students by saying their position is illogical and naive, of course.
 
Wrangor said:
As a last point, these are the kind of tweets I see all the time. Basically - denounce the NRA or resign. That isn’t a call for dialogue. That is a demand for submission.

I don’t think it is morally wrong to demand for submission. If it is a moral argument then one person is right and the other is wrong. But let’s not pretend a compromise is being asked for (or desired). Submission won’t happen (nor do I think it is desired). The real goal here is political maneuvering imo. This again is not a moral comment just a comment in strategy. This will be used a s apolitical sledgehammer against anyone who will not denounce the NRA (which is a vast majority of Republicans). It could end up being a great strategy. I apologize in advance if my opinion doesn’t line up perfectly with the rest of the board. Please feel free to through curses and mischaracterizations my way once again .
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I think you are conflating a call for dialogue about reasonable gun control (which is what they are doing), and a call to denounce the NRA. These are separate issues; you can do both. The NRA has demonstrated for years that they not only have no interest in dialogue or compromise, and have actively worked to prevent anyone from even studying the issue. The avenue for any change is clearly not through the NRA.
 
DistrictDeacon said:
Other than judging the students by saying their position is illogical and naive, of course.
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Disagreeing is now judgement. I agreed with 3 of the positions stated and disagreed somewhat with 2.

This is exactly what I am talking about. Submission is required. I addressed the points raised and specifically stated I am not judging the students intention (I did make a value judgement on the intentions of the Democratic Party in general which I believe is strategical but not moral/immoral). I don’t think the kids care one bit about Democrat or Republican. I think they see a cause they believe in and they are rolling with it. Kudos to them.
 
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DeaconSig said:
Wrangor, you have sailor on your side. Make of that what you will.
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Im not looking for a side. I was really looking for some answers. I got a few of those and a heaping of condescension. Not everyone is looking to run over those who see things a bit differently.
 
tiltdeac said:
I think you are conflating a call for dialogue about reasonable gun control (which is what they are doing), and a call to denounce the NRA. These are separate issues; you can do both. The NRA has demonstrated for years that they not only have no interest in dialogue or compromise, and have actively worked to prevent anyone from even studying the issue. The avenue for any change is clearly not through the NRA.
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Yes but demanding a choice between renouncement of NRA or resignation makes any discussion a non starter.

It is the same thing as pro-life demanding the renouncement of Planned Parenthood in order to discuss the legitimacy of abortion (many conservatives employ this very action). The pro-life and pro-gun control movements are extremely similar. Again - this is why I didn’t denounce the attempt to submit, simply just recognized it for what it is.
 
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