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Danny Manning Credibility Watch

RChildress107 said:
I also don’t think you can extrapolate White’s results at Florida to what he would have done the last four years at Wake.
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So how can you extrapolate Danny's results in four years to eventual success in 5, 6 or however damn years you think necessary for Danny to finally figure some stuff out? Or is it all about the "place holder" strategy for you? Just waiting, waiting until vampire Wellman finally retires??

At some point, the BOT need to take control of the search process to find our rising star "up and comer" (Donald Ross style), or step up and produce the coin to back up the Brinks' truck and hire the damn coach an "historically competitive" program deserves.

Which one is the greater myth? That Wellman could NEVER possibly hire the right BB coach, or that Wake Forest's station as an attractive Top 30 (40?) program is a huge fallacy built on the backs of 5 great basketball players in the course of 15 years?
 
RChildress107 said:
And we have for at least a year and a half I presume. Which makes your first comment just as idiotic.
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You taking time to critique/rip on a well-written article, because it was critical of Manning and the state of his program, is classic RC form. One might call it idiotic.

It's weird how much pleasure you seem to derive from being such an OGBoards villain, and there's no telling how big of a e-douche you can truly become! Perhaps it's just a hobby/trolling at this point.
 
It's unfortunate that RChill and advanced stats weren't a thing during the Bob Staak years. Based on some subjective weighting to determine what stats are most important, he was probably doing a great job once you look past simplistic indicators like win-loss records.
 
Barring either Wright/Lewis outperforming expectations, us snagging a couple ACC ready grad transfers, or Hoard/Mucius being 1 or 2 and done type of players, then we are going to struggle mightily again next season.

Now we wait to hear from Craw/Doral and potential coaching shakeup.
 
CreamyGoodness said:
Barring either Wright/Lewis outperforming expectations, us snagging a couple ACC ready grad transfers, or Hoard/Mucius being 1 or 2 and done type of players, then we are going to struggle mightily again next season.

Now we wait to hear from Craw/Doral and potential coaching shakeup.
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Based on Woods leaving?
 
Deacsfan27 said:
1. The comparison was to a point simple. It doesn’t matter how you want to shape it, Carolina has been 3 games better than the 181st team in the country this season. Context obviously matters, but at the end of the day that’s where we are.
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Why is everyone so afraid of context? Here’s a [Redacted] comparison I can abide by:

“Manning has clearly improved the program, both on and off the court, from the rock bottom of [Redacted]. He led us to the NCAAT (for all the first four haters we were the 34th at large bid, a position that was always considered “in the tournament” before the expansion to 68 teams) and finished in the top 40 in KP (some 90 spots higher than the team he took over). He produced a first round pick and his recruiting has been a clear improvement.

Despite the obvious improvements, however, Manning’s 4th season at Wake looked downright [Redacted]-ian. Sure he finished 30 spots higher in KP than [Redacted]’s best team, but 11-20(4-14) was unheard of at the Joel before [Redacted] came around and Manning should be well past such results in year 4 of his rebuild. If he doesn’t move well past them next year then, fairly or not, he will be forever attached to his predecessor whenever we look back on the darkest era in Wake Basketball history.”

Is that really that hard?
 
RChildress107 said:
Why is everyone so afraid of context? Here’s a [Redacted] comparison I can abide by:

“Manning has clearly improved the program, both on and off the court, from the rock bottom of [Redacted]. He led us to the NCAAT (for all the first four haters we were the 34th at large bid, a position that was always considered “in the tournament” before the expansion to 68 teams) and finished in the top 40 in KP (some 90 spots higher than the team he took over). He produced a first round pick and his recruiting has been a clear improvement.

Despite the obvious improvements, however, Manning’s 4th season at Wake looked downright [Redacted]-ian. Sure he finished 30 spots higher in KP than [Redacted]’s best team, but 11-20(4-14) was unheard of at the Joel before [Redacted] came around and Manning should be well past such results in year 4 of his rebuild. If he doesn’t move well past them next year then, fairly or not, he will be forever attached to his predecessor whenever we look back on the darkest era in Wake Basketball history.”

Is that really that hard?
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Why is context necessary? He's awful. Putting lipstick on a pig still makes it a pig.
 
RacerDeac said:
It's unfortunate that RChill and advanced stats weren't a thing during the Bob Staak years. Based on some subjective weighting to determine what stats are most important, he was probably doing a great job once you look past simplistic indicators like win-loss records.
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Nah. Advanced stats tell us he was a lot better than [Redacted] but still shit overall. Much like Manning if you ignore simplistic indicators like NCAA tournaments and recruiting rankings.
 
RacerDeac said:
It's unfortunate that RChill and advanced stats weren't a thing during the Bob Staak years. Based on some subjective weighting to determine what stats are most important, he was probably doing a great job once you look past simplistic indicators like win-loss records.
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Funny you should mention that, Staak's teams WERE PROFICIENT in terms of sharing the basketball and shooting the 3-ball after it was implemented (usually between 39 & 42%), and his second year team actually played a little defense. Unfortunately for him, he didn't recruit enough good depth (ahem, role players that apparently aren't that important if your're in the RChill camp) and pushed too much tempo in years 3 and 4, which led to tragic results on the defensive end (and a combined two year record of 23-33). And ironically enough, his teams could probably beat a Manning coached team since they play hardly any defense by comparison. Not to mention he played round robin against some damn good ACC teams in UNC, Clemson (Horace Grant says hi!), Virginia, State and Duke.
 
CreamyGoodness said:
We now have no pure shooters on the team. That isn't Hoard or Mucius' game either. Unless we have a couple of guys who can stretch the zone then we are effed.
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Woods was no Arians. Obviously we'll have to see how it goes next year, but I'll take the height and athleticism that Mucius and Hoard offer over what Woods offered. I liked Woods, but he isn't really tall enough or athletic enough to defend on a good ACC team. Woods was a better Wilbekin. We need more than that. Crawford, Chill, and Brown can shoot well enough if we play better D.
 
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MichDeac25 said:
Woods was no Arians. Obviously we'll have to see how it goes next year, but I'll take the height and athleticism that Mucius and Hoard offer over what Woods offered. I liked Woods, but he isn't really tall enough or athletic enough to defend on a good ACC team. Woods was a better Wilbekin. We need more than that. Crawford, Chill, and Brown can shoot well enough if we play better D.
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Hope you're right.

I still wouldn't be shocked if Crawford leaves.
 
Why the Deac Not said:
So how can you extrapolate Danny's results in four years to eventual success in 5, 6 or however damn years you think necessary for Danny to finally figure some stuff out? Or is it all about the "place holder" strategy for you? Just waiting, waiting until vampire Wellman finally retires??

At some point, the BOT need to take control of the search process to find our rising star "up and comer" (Donald Ross style), or step up and produce the coin to back up the Brinks' truck and hire the damn coach an "historically competitive" program deserves.

Which one is the greater myth? That Wellman could NEVER possibly hire the right BB coach, or that Wake Forest's station as an attractive Top 30 (40?) program is a huge fallacy built on the backs of 5 great basketball players in the course of 15 years?
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Where would you rank Wake on a list of “easiest places to build a college basketball program?” Where would you rank Wellman on a list of ADs capable of identifying the next Tony Bennett? How many coaches that would be willing to come to Wake for less than 5 million will lead a program into the upper echelons of college basketball within 10 years? Y’all are busy looking for a unicorn while I’m merely pointing out that our AD couldn’t tell a thoroughbred from a mule so maybe we should see how far this plow horse can take us.

There’s not a ton of turnover among the top echelons of college basketball. Breaking into the top 20 programs is incredibly difficult. Odom and Skip had us on the brink but couldn’t keep us there, largely because they failed to replace the generational talents responsible for a lot of their success.

Which brings me to your first question. The only thing Manning needs to figure out at the moment is how to put more talent on the floor. He doesn’t get anymore time to do that. He either has the talent to overcome some of his weaknesses next year or he doesn’t. You know this is my position as I’ve stated it directly to you several times. No one, least of all me, is talking about a year 6 or year 7.
 
Why the Deac Not said:
Funny you should mention that, Staak's teams WERE PROFICIENT in terms of sharing the basketball and shooting the 3-ball after it was implemented (usually between 39 & 42%), and his second year team actually played a little defense. Unfortunately for him, he didn't recruit enough good depth (ahem, role players that apparently aren't that important if your're in the RChill camp) and pushed too much tempo in years 3 and 4, which led to tragic results on the defensive end (and a combined two year record of 23-33). And ironically enough, his teams could probably beat a Manning coached team since they play hardly any defense by comparison. Not to mention he played round robin against some damn good ACC teams in UNC, Clemson (Horace Grant says hi!), Virginia, State and Duke.
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Who knew all Staak was missing was Donovan Mitchell.
 
tigerswood said:
Why is context necessary? He's awful. Putting lipstick on a pig still makes it a pig.
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It doesn't matter to you RChill as folks here give you contextual supporting evidence all of the time to support their assertions, but you choose to only focus on the context of one example (Bzz to Manning) when we're all quite familiar with it. Yet other coaches typically don't squander the momentum of one good year unless they are using inherited players from a previous coach in said year.

Was Collins a fluke, or a good example of Manning's ability to pinpoint off the radar talent? Because many of his other attempts to do so have not been so good (Hudson, Rondale, SJM, Rick Wash, Eggleston, Mitchell?). But perhaps the bigger mistake was his over-reliance on substituting recruited talent with transfers-in and hole-plugs while ignoring the importance of setting your foundation. Mitoglou was a good step in that direction in retrospect, but where are the other "foundation" guys? He was overly fond of Wilbekin, Woods decided to leave for greener pastures (again), Chill is a capable back up, and the rest of 2016 said "sayonara!" So, who are \ will be the true replacements for Craw and Moore next year and beyond? BC\Lewis and Lorng?

I'll be more inclined to believe he might have a shot at turning this around if he can recruit better talent at the PG & C positions to complement Hoard and Brown, and Zeke and Sarr in 2019-20. But I still have major misgivings about his ability to manage his roster and coach in-game.
 
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