Doral Moore

[PhDeac]

We had McClinton playing meaningful minutes at PF along with the 3 guard lineups with Arians at the 4. People wanted to stay big with Dinos wasn't on the floor. I don't remember this consensus that Moore was bad.

 

[wakephan09]

I just skimmed a November 2016 thread called "Doral Moore" which included discussion after a decent Doral showing against Northwestern.

A lot of posters -- at this point, before conference play -- still had some hope for Doral as a "project," but there were several posts to the effect of "I'm getting the feeling Doral won't be very good."

Here was an interesting post from Knowell, arguing that what Doral really needed was more playing time. This seems to me like one of the earliest calls for a Moore/Collins duo, which I hypothesized in my post above began soon after this point:

Washington had 21 points, 16 rebounds, and 6 blocks for ECU the other day. Just maybe playing time is beneficial in becoming a better player.

We saw what Moore did when given some decent playing time at the end of last year. How has he regressed considerably under the tutelage of the best big man coach in the country?

I would like to see Moore at the 5 and Collins at the 4 for periods of the game. Defense and rebounding would improve. Other teams would have trouble matching up down low. It can't be that hard to teach how to be stationary on a screen.

For whatever reason Manning will not consider this.

 

[wakephan09]

Here's a few more, from January 2017, at the start of ACC play in Doral's sophomore year:

If Doral wasn't such an offensive liability he'd be amazing.

I would like to see Moore and Collins play together occasionally. The big Brit set some nice interior screens when he was in. He's learning.

Not playing Moore more in general is just mind-boggling to me. His contributions protecting the rim and getting rebounds should have him getting significant minutes.

So the calls for a JC/Doral duo are beginning in earnest about this time.

 

[PhDeac]

Right. If your big problem is that your best scorer gets into foul trouble defending the post, why not give him minutes with a rim protector to absorb some of those fouls?

 

[wakephan09]

Here was our thinking several games later, at the very beginning of February; we've realized JC is as good as gone and we're looking forward to the 2017-18 season:

the money between, say, pick 12 and pick 20 really isn't all that different when you factor in the opportunity cost of staying in college another year. he's probably gone. Manning better hit big in 2018 recruiting because we aren't very good without Collins.

Cigs and the English dude will step up.

Haven't seen much to inspire any sort of confidence in those two.

Doral Moore is really bad. The handful of dunks and blocks he gets per game does not make up for his poor positioning on D, lack of foot speed, high turnovers, etc.

SJM very likely sucks too. But maybe can develop into just a D/rebounding big. Not sure on that.

 

[wakephan09]

More discussion about playing JC and Moore together:

Is there a reason we don't play Moore at the 5 and JC at the 4 for stretches? As a guy that admittedly doesn't watch much hoops, seems like it could be an impossible duo to defend.

Doral's minutes backing up JC are important when JC has foul trouble... no other options really. They're both foul prone, so they're almost always staggered.

Also I don't think they work well offensively together. They're both black holes of usage, on the good for JC and usually on the not so good for Doral.

They wouldn't be good offensively or defensively together.

It would help Collins stay out of foul trouble but stay on the court. It would avoid some of the ole D from Collins as well.

Dinos isn't even really a 4th shooter nowadays. He's last on the team in 3PA and only hitting 22% in ACC play.

They actually have played together for a number of stretches. Doral simply has no position other than center, and putting Collins on ACC 4's is a recipe for more fouls which is the nightmare scenario for our team - our entire offense runs through Collins. If I remember one time we went twin towers Collins picked up back-to-back fouls in a single possession. Plus Doral is still pretty limited. More of him is not really something an NCAA tourney team would be hoping for.

 

[Strickland33]

Only player on the team with a positive +/- in ACC play: +11 in 502:39, 70% of possible minutes.
https://awbridgers.github.io/lineup-data/#/Acc-Totals

The worst? Sarr at -79 in 277:52 and Childress at -78 in 498:26.

Here was our thinking several games later, at the very beginning of February; we've realized JC is as good as gone and we're looking forward to the 2017-18 season:

For as much as Doral improved offensively, his improvement on the defensive end was pretty remarkable. He'll never be a great pick-and-roll defender, but he can be a great post defender in the ACC if he keeps it up.

 

[wakephan09]

the money between, say, pick 12 and pick 20 really isn't all that different when you factor in the opportunity cost of staying in college another year. he's probably gone. Manning better hit big in 2018 recruiting because we aren't very good without Collins.

Cigs and the English dude will step up.

Haven't seen much to inspire any sort of confidence in those two.

Doral Moore is really bad. The handful of dunks and blocks he gets per game does not make up for his poor positioning on D, lack of foot speed, high turnovers, etc.

SJM very likely sucks too. But maybe can develop into just a D/rebounding big. Not sure on that.

I have no idea what you all see in Moore. I would play him 0 minutes if possible. He's horrible on defense too. Fouling machine, always out of position, so slow. It doesn't nearly make up for his 1 block every 10 minutes. He is an average to weak rebounder for a center. On offense his shooting % on non dunks is horrible and turns it over a ton. I feel like I had the same conversation about Dre Washington where people thought he would develop into something until the bitter end.

Just a classic case of the splash plays (big dunks and oops and blocks) are really sexy to people and cloud judgement IMO

Still from the beginning of February 2017:

What tools? He isn't quick laterally or particularly quick in general. He is explosive, but plodding. He is an awful pick and roll defender, too. I appreciate the energy he gives the team with the dunks and blocks, but he probably ends up being a net zero in the end because of how mistake prone he is at this point.

in 10 ACC games Doral is -10. overall Wake is -11 in those games.

 

[wakephan09]

I haven't quoted any posts from game threads...because damn, guys, we are fucking mean in the heat of the moment.

 

[wakephan09]

And as a finale, this thread should tell us all we need to know about our feelings about Doral at the end of last year, after the K-State loss and before Doral's remarkable improvements over the summer:

https://www.ogboards.com/forums/showthread.php/27765-Is-Moore-transferring?p=2787612

 

[PhDeac]

This seems like a good time to point out that Manning has lost 20 games with a C who averaged 15.6 pts, 10.4 reb, 1.5 blk and did it again with a C who averaged 11.1 pts, 9.4 reb, 2.0 blk on 69% shooting. He barely made the tournament with a C who averaged 19.2 pts, 9.8 reb, 1.7 blk on 62% shooting.

We can acknowledge that Manning develops big men, but we also have to ask if it even matters to the bottom line.

 

[wakephan09]

You have a terrible memory or are a terrible judge of basketball potential.

To be fair, you seem to have been on the "Doral has potential, we should play him more" train early and often, but the majority of others were only hopeful in the typical WF "Remember Kyle Visser!" or "Big Man Camp!" kind of way.

People were generally not very positive about Doral's skills and potential at that time.

 

[knowell]

I have always felt that playing with height and athleticism, even if raw, gives your team more room for error. Some things do not always how up on the box score. Having someone like Moore near the basket can cover for poorer perimeter defense. It can also encourage opponents to take lower percentage shots or made bad passes.

Offensive rebounding is hugely important in college basketball. If you are going to play an undersized shooting team, you better have good defenders and rebounders or you better be great shooters. Wake had neither of those and would have won a lot more games taking advantage of the size it had.

 

[WakeForest Fan]

Entering draft. Dumbasses. No agent though

 

[ChrisL68]

I said at the beginning of the year I was wondering what basketball games people were watching to come to the conclusion that sjm could have anywhere near the potential of cigs.

 

[knowell]

I said at the beginning of the year I was wondering what basketball games people were watching to come to the conclusion that sjm could have anywhere near the potential of cigs.

He was much quicker with a blade. Can't underestimate that.

 

[Strickland33]

Entering draft. Dumbasses. No agent though

They're juniors and didn't hire an agent. What's the harm in testing out their draft stock?

 

[wakephan09]

Also, it's kind of a smart move. Not really dumbass-ey at all. They'll get the feedback we all know they deserve and, I hope, be back next season with a bit of extra motivation.

Now, if they get bad feedback and then hire an agent, then​ they might be dumbasses.

 

[jaybone]

Entering draft. Dumbasses. No agent though

Stupid post. The equivalent of interviewing for a job you dont expect to land AND getting free interviewing and resume feedback

 

[WFU Lurker]

This seems like a good time to point out that Manning has lost 20 games with a C who averaged 15.6 pts, 10.4 reb, 1.5 blk and did it again with a C who averaged 11.1 pts, 9.4 reb, 2.0 blk on 69% shooting. He barely made the tournament with a C who averaged 19.2 pts, 9.8 reb, 1.7 blk on 62% shooting.

We can acknowledge that Manning develops big men, but we also have to ask if it even matters to the bottom line.

Yep. This is the ticket. We have had great big men, particularly at center, over the past four years. [Redacted] gets credit for recruiting Devin and Manning gets credit for recruiting Collins, Dinos, and Moore and for developing all 4. But, in the end, all Wake has to show for it is an average of 13.5 wins per year.

I don't know why people won't concede this point. Really, it just reinforces that Manning isn't very good at most other aspects of the job. For example, going back to 2014 we knew that Dinos probably wouldn't be here for 4 years yet Manning was still caught with his pants down (and, in fact, we still aren't going to have a proper 4 on the roster next year).