Education Policy Thread: Pubs are now the party of choice!

[Tobacco Road]

You know that public schools don’t have waitlists, right? We just take the kids and make it work. My prior middle school added 150 students one summer after not filling a couple of positions left by retired teachers, which meant our classes went from crowded to overcrowded.

Why can’t your charter school just take more kids?

No, he doesn't seem to understand that most public schools can't have waitlists.

 

[BillBrasky]

Double post

 

[BillBrasky]

No, he doesn't seem to understand that most public schools can't have waitlists.

He’d weirdly really proud of this waitlist thing.

JH also didn’t answer any of my earlier points about lack of transparency, especially when it comes to taxpayer money.

 

[birdman]

No, he doesn't seem to understand that most public schools can't have waitlists.

0% of traditional public schools have waitlists! It’s incontrafutable that no one wants to go there!

 

[PhDeac]

He’d weirdly really proud of this waitlist thing.

JH also didn’t answer any of my earlier points about lack of transparency, especially when it comes to taxpayer money.

Get on his waitlist for an answer.

 

[deaconson]

Woke and broke has ignored the "quality of charter schools" discussion in favor of the "lots of families in NC want to send their kids to charter schools" discussion. NC also overwhelmingly goes for trump and trumpian gop politicians. So demand as a pro charter school point vs quality seems... a shame for the kids in many cases.

 

[Tobacco Road]

Approximately 8.4% of the state’s 1.5 million public school students attend charter schools.

The vast majority of parents in NC choose to send their kids to traditional public schools over charters. Obviously, the parents have spoken and the traditional public is better.

 

[Deleted member 7528]

*** Our oldest was on a waiting list for a trendy charter in 1st grade due to his special needs. By the time he got off the waitlist, my wife was comfortable with how our neighborhood school handled his changing IEP. I later found out that one of my colleague’s son was severely bullied at that school at administrators didn’t do enough to stop it.

Even if you buy jhmd’s premise, there another reason that 76,000 number is flawed. If the key is to be in A charter, any charter, instead of a traditional public school, some people are on multiple waitlists.

So you can’t just add 76,000 waitlisted to the existing charter students to come up with a total who like charters.

First, best wishes here. I hope that works out. All I'm arguing for is that more people (including your family) have that option. Your party is working very hard to limit the choices you wanted to make (and ended up on the waitlist you want us to ignore). "Two parent family makes educational choice" is on the yellow belt for being a Republican. You're on your way, my friend.

Second, it is flawed in more ways than one. Surely there is some redundancy on the waitlists (we'll ignore the fact that you were on one and only one waitlist). But there are 200 charters in the entire State. Your party has worked hard to reduce the resources and options available to many areas of the State, so many people don't have a meaningful choice. The real number of people who would consider it surely would climb if there were more options out there. Nobody in a school district that doesn't have a charter is on a waitlist at a school that doesn't exist. The fact is 76% of charters have a waitlist, so where we try it, demand soars. Worth noting for those interested in actually assessing demand.

 

[Deleted member 7528]

Woke and broke has ignored the "quality of charter schools" discussion in favor of the "lots of families in NC want to send their kids to charter schools" discussion. NC also overwhelmingly goes for trump and trumpian gop politicians. So demand as a pro charter school point vs quality seems... a shame for the kids in many cases.

You must have ignored the polling data among Democrats the first time I posted it. Here it is again: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brow...rters-diverge-by-race-as-2020-elections-loom/

New poll results from Democrats for Education Reform, an advocacy organization that supports charter schools, show a stark contrast between the attitudes of white Democrats on one side, and black and Hispanic Democrats, on the other. Among white Democratic voters, 26% expressed favorable opinions toward charters, while 62% had unfavorable opinions. The results were essentially flipped for black (58% favorable, 31% unfavorable) and Hispanic (52% favorable, 30% unfavorable) Democratic voters.

The opposition to charters is confined to white Democrats. What a surprise to hear that the good little white liberals that populate the Myers Park, RJ Reynolds, Broughton and Grimsley PTAs are sold on the public schools that service their expensive neighborhoods (to say nothing of the Biden/Harris clad fleet of Priuses parked in front of Forsyth Country Day and Charlotte Latin). For some reason, the Democrats at less privileged schools don't share their devotion to a system that doesn't work for them nearly as well.

Is your theory that devotion to Trump is leading black and Hispanic Democrats towards charters?

 

[Deleted member 7528]

He’d weirdly really proud of this waitlist thing.

JH also didn’t answer any of my earlier points about lack of transparency, especially when it comes to taxpayer money.

It's not weird. It's evidence. What's weird is that 200,000 people are turning down the public service you're offering for free that they have a manifest need for, and you're not interested as to why. That's weird.

 

[BillBrasky]

It's not weird. It's evidence. What's weird is that 200,000 people are turning down the public service you're offering for free that they have a manifest need for, and you're not interested as to why. That's weird.

You still haven’t address the lack of financial transparency with taxpayers money, and why Charter schools can’t just admit more students and make it work like public schools who don’t have waitlists.

Does the school that your children attend publish their financials? If not, does that not make you suspicious?

 

[Deleted member 7528]

You still haven’t address the lack of financial transparency with taxpayers money, and why Charter schools can’t just admit more students and make it work like public schools who don’t have waitlists.

Does the school that your children attend publish their financials? If not, does that not make you suspicious?

Nationwide, on average, charter schools are funded at 61 percent of their district counterparts, averaging $6,585 per pupil compared to $10,771 per pupil at conventional district public schools. Unlike traditional district schools, most charter schools do not receive funding to cover the cost of securing a facility...

https://edreform.com/2011/09/how-are-charter-schools-funded/

 

[birdman]

It's not weird. It's evidence. What's weird is that 200,000 people are turning down the public service you're offering for free that they have a manifest need for, and you're not interested as to why. That's weird.

Yeah, but it’s not really evidence of what you’re claiming.

 

[Deleted member 7528]

Yeah, but it’s not really evidence of what you’re claiming.

Of course it is. They're leaving because they're not happy with the status quo. Not everyone has the same tolerance for failure of government programs as posters on the Tunnels.

Understand (maybe even embrace?) that change is coming. If you accept that inevitable outcome, you should also understand that among the changes that are on the table, charters are the most mainstream approach. They are open for anyone to apply. I'm against private school vouchers because they are not. I'm not imposing my choice on others; I hope they weigh what makes sense for their family and find the right fit. For some reason, you do not. Perhaps you continue to believe that you all/the educational establishment know best. If so, that is a dead policy walking.

 

[PhDeac]

Republicans who control state legislatures take such pride in people rejecting the public education their government provides. It’s a kind of “freemium” education. They load up the free product with stuff people don’t want and upcharge them.

 

[birdman]

Of course it is. They're leaving because they're not happy with the status quo. Not everyone has the same tolerance for failure of government programs as posters on the Tunnels.

Understand (maybe even embrace?) that change is coming. If you accept that inevitable outcome, you should also understand that among the changes that are on the table, charters are the most mainstream approach. They are open for anyone to apply. I'm against private school vouchers because they are not. I'm not imposing my choice on others; I hope they weigh what makes sense for their family and find the right fit. For some reason, you do not. Perhaps you continue to believe that you all/the educational establishment know best. If so, that is a dead policy walking.

How do you know this? Are there survey data of the 200,000 parents? Are there studies that assess the reasons parents are making these choices? I think there are lots of reasons people might give up on their local public school that have nothing to do with quality of the education at the local school. You need more data to draw the conclusions about these glorious waitlists that you are drawing.

 

[Deleted member 7528]

How do you know this? Are there survey data of the 200,000 parents? Are there studies that assess the reasons parents are making these choices? I think there are lots of reasons people might give up on their local public school that have nothing to do with quality of the education at the local school. You need more data to draw the conclusions about these glorious waitlists that you are drawing.

All I'm arguing is that they have that choice in the first place.

 

[birdman]

All I'm arguing is that they have that choice in the first place.

This is not really what you've been arguing. Or at least that is not where you started with this whole "Charters are the answer!" parade of posts. You started with the premise that traditional public schools are failing and choice will create competition which will naturally lead to improvement across the board. The entire need for school choice was tied up in the need for better education options for parents and children. You argued that students are the consumer and schools were the service provider and that choice would force the service providers to compete for customers and therefore improve the quality of their service. Now you are saying choice is freedom and freedom is good. I have no argument with freedom is good, but at the same time we can't leave the people that don't have the resources to make the choice to drive their kid to school of their choosing aren't left behind. The freedom to choose is not distributed equally across the population. We need to make all the choices good ones. That is my argument.

 

[WFFaithful]

You must have ignored the polling data among Democrats the first time I posted it. Here it is again: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brow...rters-diverge-by-race-as-2020-elections-loom/

New poll results from Democrats for Education Reform, an advocacy organization that supports charter schools, show a stark contrast between the attitudes of white Democrats on one side, and black and Hispanic Democrats, on the other. Among white Democratic voters, 26% expressed favorable opinions toward charters, while 62% had unfavorable opinions. The results were essentially flipped for black (58% favorable, 31% unfavorable) and Hispanic (52% favorable, 30% unfavorable) Democratic voters.

The opposition to charters is confined to white Democrats. What a surprise to hear that the good little white liberals that populate the Myers Park, RJ Reynolds, Broughton and Grimsley PTAs are sold on the public schools that service their expensive neighborhoods (to say nothing of the Biden/Harris clad fleet of Priuses parked in front of Forsyth Country Day and Charlotte Latin). For some reason, the Democrats at less privileged schools don't share their devotion to a system that doesn't work for them nearly as well.

Is your theory that devotion to Trump is leading black and Hispanic Democrats towards charters?

Why would people at these privileged public schools like their schools better? You told me that more funding doesn't matter.

Also, whites make up a higher percentage of charter schools than public schools.

 

[Deleted member 7528]

This is not really what you've been arguing. Or at least that is not where you started with this whole "Charters are the answer!" parade of posts. You started with the premise that traditional public schools are failing and choice will create competition which will naturally lead to improvement across the board. The entire need for school choice was tied up in the need for better education options for parents and children. You argued that students are the consumer and schools were the service provider and that choice would force the service providers to compete for customers and therefore improve the quality of their service. Now you are saying choice is freedom and freedom is good. I have no argument with freedom is good, but at the same time we can't leave the people that don't have the resources to make the choice to drive their kid to school of their choosing aren't left behind. The freedom to choose is not distributed equally across the population. We need to make all the choices good ones. That is my argument.

The pivot-less pivot. Those aren't different arguments at their core, they are different aspects of a single argument.

Our student teacher ratio is much better than it was in our public, and that was year-round option; it would have been worse in traditional public calendar. So it makes sense for us, especially with the one of ours that isn't as self-motivated (it's always the baby, isn't it?). So I'm glad we have the choice, and I would like there to be more than 200 options, so I'm an advocate. That doesn't mean I'm convinced that MY choice needs to be the ONLY choice and that nobody should have a different choice. That's too arrogant and foolish to be my argument. That's Brasky's argument.