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Evolution, Creation, and You

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The essence of his argument last week was that the information content of the higher forms of life is represented by the number 1040,000 -- representing the specificity with which some 2,000 genes, each of which might be chosen from 1020 nucleotide sequences of the appropriate length, might be defined. Evolutionary processes would, Hoyle said, require several Hubble times to yield such a result. The chance that higher life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable with the chance that "a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein".

Here, have some fucking pasta with your sauce.
 
In Evolution I prefer Steven J. Gould and appreciate the philosophical aspects of punctuated equilibrium.

Don't believe in chance and recognize that the overwhelming number of "participants" in Evolution don't Evolve at all. Stasis is the predominant feature of Evolution.

Glad to see you have already mischaracterized punctuated equilibrium. I am sure Gould is happy to see his theory still being misrepresented to this day. His theory isn't that the overwhelming number of "participants" don't evolve, it is that observable evolution happens in bursts rather than gradually over time. And of course, it isn't even the opposite of gradualism as you would portray it. Gould was talking about evolution as it pertained to the geological record. He fully supported the idea that genetic alterations (silent or otherwise) were occurring quite consistently throughout nature which is of course evolution in action hence your statement about most participants is more full of shit than your predictions about the basketball team. However in the fossil record one would not see this form of gradual change but rather observe rapid bursts of evolution most likely in response to substantial evolutionary pressures arising.

Fred Hoyle invented the Big Bang theory and later in life he essentially called it bullshit. It is an epochal myth that won't survive further scientific knowledge. As far as "gobbledy-fuckin-gook" it likely takes the cake. Nothing could be more profoundly un-scientific and the theory violates the laws set for exploring nature. Basically, no- thing comes from nothing. Had you lived in Ancient Greece you could have "believed in" one of the Big Bang's many precursors -- ab nihilo ...life sprang from the "egg of nothingness". India, which gave us the concept of Zero, also has its myths of a world created out of the void. Cosmologists will argue that it's not "something from nothing for there was a pre-existent space time singularity" and when you enquire the origin of thus you get shrugs and sighs. It's one of those Russian dolls within a doll within a doll...

This is a whole other level of stupid. I will let TW have fun with this one.

Dawkins' arguments for chance (in the creation of a protein strand or innumerable other components for life) is a myopic and ungrateful approach to a miraculous earth. Here you have a leading light in Darwinisn who accepts the most outrageous odds for the rise of life. The idea of "chance" he promotes is straight out of the theatre of the absurd and makes the 1 in 131 million lottery look like easy money. The odds he accepts are beyond any reasoned approach and to hear Dawkins "defend" them by throwing a billion years against the wall is sad and pathetic. That this icon of scientific enquiry would float such as a possibility is a great reminder of God's sense of humor.

Again, this point demonstrates a quite astonishing lack of understanding for biology or evolution. It is a good thinig you don't listen to actual experts or science on this, you might actually learn something for once. First of all, saying evolution is "random" or occurs by "chance" is not the same thing as saying all, or any, proteins formed by chance. The chance being talked about, for most of evolution, is random mutation of genetic material that may or may not give rise to a change in a protein that may or may not (at this point or ANY TIME IN THE FUTURE) confer an advantage or disadvantage to survival. That isn't the same thing as saying life, and the components there of, came together by pure chance. The type of truly random interactions occurring during the earliest stages of the formation of life aren't the mechanism for evolution so they really have no bearing on this discussion. Evolution of genes and proteins is due to RANDOM mutation (which leads to a templated change in a protein), not random association of amino acids or nucleic acids. But again, enjoy twisting Dawkin's thoughts (some of which many evolutionary biologists oppose) to produce a fun strawman for yourself.

Abiogenesis is a mathematical impossibility. Sir Fred Hoyle, a British astronomer and mathematician, calculated the odds of one simple bacterium arising from a primordial soup. He assumed that the 20 amino acids were present in the soup (contrary to the results of the Miller-Urey experiment, which yielded only seven of the simplest amino acids). A simple bacterium is comprised of 2,000 different functioning proteins. In turn, each protein consists of a chain of about 300 amino acids. There are 20 distinct amino acids, so the odds of one proteinated amino acid occurring in the correct sequence is one in 20. The odds of 300 occurring in the correct sequence is one in 30020. Hoyle realized that there can be some variation in the exact sequence, so the odds would be reduced to one in 1020. But because there must be 2,000 different functioning proteins, the odds of the spontaneous generation of a cell is one in 10(20)(2,000) = 1040,000. Even ignoring the problems beyond the math (such as the counter-productive effects that individual essential chemical components have upon each other, and the inability to create all 20 amino acids under simulated conditions), abiogenesis is impossible.

I guess its a good thing you are the only person dumb enough to suggest an intact and functional bacteria magically emerged from a "primordial soup" with no intermediates whatsoever. Setting aside just another shining example of how ignorant you are to even the most basic understanding of biology and evolution, let us actually look into early evolution. First of all, proteins coming together randomly in "primordial soup" isn't even the most logical or widely accepted path of early evolution. The notion of an RNA world is the most widely accepted, and IMO most intriguing, theory. Random associations (see now we can discuss chance interactions) of ribonucleic acids are thought to have resulted in shorter chains of RNA. Included in this RNA (we see plenty of evidence of these to this day) are primative RNA viruses which are capable of removing themselves from a strand of RNA and subsequently replicating and/or inserting themselves into other strands of nucleic acids. These uniquely self-propagating RNA viruses lay the foundation for more complex life, though there is debate as to whether they would be the first form of life on Earth. Why RNA you ask? Good question. The answer is that RNA, like DNA, encodes genetic information that can be passed on and translated into proteins. RNA can also catalyze reactions, like a protein, which DNA is not capable of doing. So not only does RNA serve as the intermediate between DNA and protein in modern life (the only molecule in the bunch capable, under natural conditions, to serve as both a template for DNA and for protein) but it is capable of mediating the major functions of DNA and proteins. In the early RNA world, you then have RNA strands which begin to associate (randomly within the contexts of allowed chemistry) with amino acids to form rudimentary ribonucleic proteins (or RNPs). Why is this significant? Well RNPs, including the Ribosome, are critically important for translating RNA sequences into proteins. Over the course of timescales no human can even possibly imagine (especially when taken into the context of how rapidly these types of interactions can form and dissociate) you have RNAs that associated with RNPs that mediate the conversion of those RNAs into proteins. Hence you start to form larger, more complex proteins. However this doesn't happen by the chance interactions you seem to think occur but is rather templated by the RNA. As changes occur to RNAs, new coding RNAs are made and more tRNAs are made that can bring amino acids in contact with one another via even more RNPs. One can see how this can snowball. But by all means, please continue to tell us how unlikely it is a fully formed bacteria arose from no precursor whatsoever by random chance, since nobody but yourself even advocates that as a real possibility. I would also like to point out that even the simplest of bacteria are complex to a degree that you do not seem to fathom Lectro so they have never and will never be considered the first forms of life. They are actually quite advanced compared to early "life".

In summary, you are wrong and once again you have bastardized the real theories of actual scientists to come to such an erroneous position.
 
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How can there be any comments? You never add anything.
 
In Evolution I prefer Steven J. Gould and appreciate the philosophical aspects of punctuated equilibrium.

Dawkins's distinction between punctuated equilibrium and discrete variable speedism seems crucial to me. Importantly, though, PE should not be viewed in contrast to gradualism, but as one kind of gradualism.

Don't believe in chance and recognize that the overwhelming number of "participants" in Evolution don't Evolve at all. Stasis is the predominant feature of Evolution.

Chance doesn't require you to believe in it. It doesn't "exist" in any real sense. And this next point doesn't make much sense or seem to have much evidence to back it up, though I'd like to discuss it with you further. I would argue that mutations are the predominant feature of evolution, alongside general chaos, and that stasis is the predominant feature of stasis.

Fred Hoyle invented the Big Bang theory and later in life he essentially called it bullshit. It is an epochal myth that won't survive further scientific knowledge. As far as "gobbledy-fuckin-gook" it likely takes the cake. Nothing could be more profoundly un-scientific and the theory violates the laws set for exploring nature. Basically, no- thing comes from nothing. Had you lived in Ancient Greece you could have "believed in" one of the Big Bang's many precursors -- ab nihilo ...life sprang from the "egg of nothingness". India, which gave us the concept of Zero, also has its myths of a world created out of the void. Cosmologists will argue that it's not "something from nothing for there was a pre-existent space time singularity" and when you enquire the origin of thus you get shrugs and sighs. It's one of those Russian dolls within a doll within a doll...

Here is where I completely begin to disagree. First, you don't invent a theory, but that's a semantic disagreement. Same with your characterization of "myth." It has survived further scientific knowledge, whatever that means, and continues to be one of the widest held and supported theories in science today, especially in physics. It has been continually supported by empirical data. As TW points out, Higgs may be the missing link to counteract the long held thermodynamic principles. And list as many apocryphal creation myths as you want, science doesn't function on handing down stories, as much as anti-science people might suggest it does. It actively gathers evidence, either in support or in contrast of narratives. The Big Bang narrative isn't a monolith that scientists have stopped trying to advance, confirm, or deny, like the myths from long ago you listed alongside it. It's an incomplete narrative whose pieces are being empirically filled in by particle physicists and quantum mathematicians as we speak.

Dawkins' arguments for chance (in the creation of a protein strand or innumerable other components for life) is a myopic and ungrateful approach to a miraculous earth. Here you have a leading light in Darwinisn who accepts the most outrageous odds for the rise of life. The idea of "chance" he promotes is straight out of the theatre of the absurd and makes the 1 in 131 million lottery look like easy money. The odds he accepts are beyond any reasoned approach and to hear Dawkins "defend" them by throwing a billion years against the wall is sad and pathetic. That this icon of scientific enquiry would float such as a possibility is a great reminder of God's sense of humor.

Abiogenesis is a mathematical impossibility. Sir Fred Hoyle, a British astronomer and mathematician, calculated the odds of one simple bacterium arising from a primordial soup. He assumed that the 20 amino acids were present in the soup (contrary to the results of the Miller-Urey experiment, which yielded only seven of the simplest amino acids). A simple bacterium is comprised of 2,000 different functioning proteins. In turn, each protein consists of a chain of about 300 amino acids. There are 20 distinct amino acids, so the odds of one proteinated amino acid occurring in the correct sequence is one in 20. The odds of 300 occurring in the correct sequence is one in 30020. Hoyle realized that there can be some variation in the exact sequence, so the odds would be reduced to one in 1020. But because there must be 2,000 different functioning proteins, the odds of the spontaneous generation of a cell is one in 10(20)(2,000) = 1040,000. Even ignoring the problems beyond the math (such as the counter-productive effects that individual essential chemical components have upon each other, and the inability to create all 20 amino acids under simulated conditions), abiogenesis is impossible.

Here is, without a doubt, the funniest, most ironic part of your post. You bring up chance. As a fundamental part of mutation and selection, chance is absolutely key to the understanding of evolution. DNA replication occurs billions upon billions of times in even the tiniest micro evolution. The odds against mutations are low. And in a vacuum, abiogenesis is "impossible." But the conditions of the primordial soup were not a vacuum. Radiation or electromagnetism or any number of catalysts play into your myopic view of odds. Biopoiesis is not a myth or an impossibility, it has been replicated. In a lab. Demonstrably. It's not even overwhelmingly complicated. Chance works in the favor of both the big bang and evolutionary processes, and those calculations are perhaps even conservative.

644px-Miller-Urey_experiment-en.svg.png

My responses in bold. I appreciate that Lectro spent so much time on Wikipedia, so I felt compelled to at least respond to his points.
 
Blow it out your Big Tree ass. I support Gould's "fits and starts" as opposed to the theory of phyletic gradualism. I suppose I was swayed by Huxley (Darwin's defender) who argued in favor of "catastrophism versus uniformitarianism". It seems to me a more logical way to evolve. Anthropology seems to bear this out in the rapid and unexpected rise of societies.
 
I was watching Cosmos a few weeks ago and the host mentioned that some people believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old but that if that were true then when we looked up at night we would only see a handful of stars since most light reaching Earth comes from stars many lightyears away. Thought that was a pretty simple way of owning that argument.
 
I oppose the idea that life arose by chance...not that the continuation of the processes are not filled with chance and random events.

My belief is in Causality. There is primary mover reflective of the intelligence we have. In my belief there was and is a primary source from which the universe was made manifest.
 
How can you possibly argue against Miller-Urey by just saying "My belief is in Causality"?
 
Blow it out your Big Tree ass. I support Gould's "fits and starts" as opposed to the theory of phyletic gradualism. I suppose I was swayed by Huxley (Darwin's defender) who argued in favor of "catastrophism versus uniformitarianism". It seems to me a more logical way to evolve. Anthropology seems to bear this out in the rapid and unexpected rise of societies.

Great, but none of that stopped you from mischaracterizing exactly what he theorized. You are stating that most participants are "static" and that is not what PE is about. PE, as a theory, says that most species will appear static IN THE FOSSIL RECORD because observable evolutionary changes occur in bursts rather than slowly over time. That isn't the same as saying evolution, as a process, isn't occurring in these species. You are taking a theory meant to explain obvious gaps in the fossil record and twisting it to pertain to how evolution as a mechanism works.
 
I don't know anyone who believes Usher's timeline. I just have not met anybody who believes such. I personally believe that we have had vast and developed societies on the planet dating back 40,000 years or more. I can't prove it...I am not qualified. But I am very intrigued by the vastness of the site at Gobekli Tepe which predates other known Neolithic structures by some 7000 years.
 
I was watching Cosmos a few weeks ago and the host mentioned that some people believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old but that if that were true then when we looked up at night we would only see a handful of stars since most light reaching Earth comes from stars many lightyears away. Thought that was a pretty simple way of owning that argument.

That is elegant.
 
Great, but none of that stopped you from mischaracterizing exactly what he theorized. You are stating that most participants are "static" and that is not what PE is about. PE, as a theory, says that most species will appear static IN THE FOSSIL RECORD because observable evolutionary changes occur in bursts rather than slowly over time. That isn't the same as saying evolution, as a process, isn't occurring in these species. You are taking a theory meant to explain obvious gaps in the fossil record and twisting it to pertain to how evolution as a mechanism works.

Look, I appreciate learning from you. I do. I give as good as I take and "no offence".

I only stated my opinion that a vast majority of the living system is at an evolutionary dead end...at least until some event startles the process to awaken. Puntuated Equilibrium. If I said it poorly, I apologize.
 
No doofus/numbers option?

I went with Other, as I absolutely don't believe in the fairy tale of creationism, but I have a gut feeling that the Big Bang Theory isn't entirely correct either.

At the end of the day I really don't care. People who spend a good chunk of their very limited time on Earth worrying about why they are here (instead of actually experiencing life) are doing it wrong.
 
No doofus/numbers option?

I went with Other, as I absolutely don't believe in the fairy tale of creationism, but I have a gut feeling that the Big Bang Theory isn't entirely correct either.

At the end of the day I really don't care. People who spend a good chunk of their very limited time on Earth worrying about why they are here, are doing it wrong.

I fundamentally disagree with this. It's part of what makes us human.
 
I fundamentally disagree with this. It's part of what makes us human.

Well, that's like your opinion, man.

I'd rather be out there doing shit than pointlessly sitting around wasting my time, accomplishing nothing. I'm all for waxing poetically about the meaning of life and all, especially over a few beverages, but people who make it their entire life to "prove" unproveable things just seem to be spinning their wheels.

I'm more than okay with not knowing why I'm here and just rolling with it.
 
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you all need to be using the word ascribe, not subscribe. sorry to be a grammar nazi
 
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