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F is for Fascism (Ferguson MO)

DeaconSig said:
Until rich white folks learn to police their own communities, this type of stuff will continue to happen.

She already had a criminal record. Had she not turned to a life of crime, she wouldn't be in this situation.
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I don't know what you're talking about. Clearly the fact that her great, grandparents were forced to leave Ireland because of religious persecution was the exclusive reason behind her decision to get drunk and be driven over an open road by an underage and unlicensed driver. To imply that she has any responsibility whatsoever for her own choices is to severely discount the trauma she (well, not "she", but in the ancestral sense) has endured. Must be nice, Sig. Must be nice.
 
Louisiana governor signs 'blue lives matter' bill

(CNN)With the nationwide friction between the Black Lives Matter movement and supporters of law enforcement as a backdrop, Louisiana Gov. John Bel Edwards signed a bill Thursday expanding the state's hate-crimes statute to add the targeting of police officers, firefighters and EMS personnel.
 
Liquid Karma said:
If you're talking about hate crime laws, then I agree with you.
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Yes I think hate crime laws are particularly stupid. If it's illegal it's illegal. If you want to use it as an aggravating factor in sentencing (I have no idea what the legal issues are there since I don't practice criminal law) then I think that's one thing.
 
hm, if we really believe laws are meant to shape behavior and not just punish, I think there's some justification for judging a crime to be "worse" if done for a certain reason.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Yes I think hate crime laws are particularly stupid. If it's illegal it's illegal. If you want to use it as an aggravating factor in sentencing (I have no idea what the legal issues are there since I don't practice criminal law) then I think that's one thing.
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I'm not even sure the aggravating factor concept makes sense. There is no way that there is any deterrent value in hate crimes laws. If a guy hates another person bad enough to beat him up or kill him, the thug is not going to suddenly think to himself "oh no, if I do this because of my hatred for gays I'll get 30 years instead of just 20 years" and refrain from killing his victim.

Hate crimes laws are basically a symbolic statement by the government that certain types of attitudes will not be tolerated. That statement is actually directed at the victimized party, and not really at the victimizers. Basically it's a political statement to specified minority groups that "your government has your back". As such, it doesn't make much sense from the standpoint of penal policy, but if you view it in that lens the "blue lives matter" law actually begins to make sense. The state of Louisiana is just sending the same signals to emergency responders as it has (apparently) sent to specified religious and racial minorities.
 
Deacon923 said:
I'm not even sure the aggravating factor concept makes sense. There is no way that there is any deterrent value in hate crimes laws. If a guy hates another person bad enough to beat him up or kill him, the thug is not going to suddenly think to himself "oh no, if I do this because of my hatred for gays I'll get 30 years instead of just 20 years" and refrain from killing his victim.

Hate crimes laws are basically a symbolic statement by the government that certain types of attitudes will not be tolerated. That statement is actually directed at the victimized party, and not really at the victimizers. Basically it's a political statement to specified minority groups that "your government has your back". As such, it doesn't make much sense from the standpoint of penal policy, but if you view it in that lens the "blue lives matter" law actually begins to make sense. The state of Louisiana is just sending the same signals to emergency responders as it has (apparently) sent to specified religious and racial minorities.
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Good post. But then again there is a ton of research out there suggesting that once a sentence length reaches a certain point (around 8-10 years in some studies, others say it's slightly less and some say more) there is no increased deterrent value and that keeping individuals in prison for longer actually increases the chance of recidivism.
 
Nine for balance.

But no, unless you believe the only reason to have them in prison is rehabilitation then I would expect there to be longer sentence lengths still.
 
Prisons are a money making scheme nowadays. There's no money in rehabilitation.
 
Deacon923 said:
I'm not even sure the aggravating factor concept makes sense. There is no way that there is any deterrent value in hate crimes laws. If a guy hates another person bad enough to beat him up or kill him, the thug is not going to suddenly think to himself "oh no, if I do this because of my hatred for gays I'll get 30 years instead of just 20 years" and refrain from killing his victim.

Hate crimes laws are basically a symbolic statement by the government that certain types of attitudes will not be tolerated. That statement is actually directed at the victimized party, and not really at the victimizers. Basically it's a political statement to specified minority groups that "your government has your back". As such, it doesn't make much sense from the standpoint of penal policy, but if you view it in that lens the "blue lives matter" law actually begins to make sense. The state of Louisiana is just sending the same signals to emergency responders as it has (apparently) sent to specified religious and racial minorities.
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Equal under the law.
 
Deacon923 said:
I'm not even sure the aggravating factor concept makes sense. There is no way that there is any deterrent value in hate crimes laws. If a guy hates another person bad enough to beat him up or kill him, the thug is not going to suddenly think to himself "oh no, if I do this because of my hatred for gays I'll get 30 years instead of just 20 years" and refrain from killing his victim.

Hate crimes laws are basically a symbolic statement by the government that certain types of attitudes will not be tolerated. That statement is actually directed at the victimized party, and not really at the victimizers. Basically it's a political statement to specified minority groups that "your government has your back". As such, it doesn't make much sense from the standpoint of penal policy, but if you view it in that lens the "blue lives matter" law actually begins to make sense. The state of Louisiana is just sending the same signals to emergency responders as it has (apparently) sent to specified religious and racial minorities.
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But it keeps him off the streets for another 5-10 years.

Why is hate any less of an aggravating factor than laying in wait? Or committing a crime for financial purposes? Or using a weapon?

Why should using a pool cue in a bar fight increase the length of a sentence but planning to attack a person based on who they are not be? It seems to me planning the attack on person because their "group" is much more heinous than randomly picking up a pool cue or bottle in a bar fight or a rock in a street fight.

People have this concept that hate crimes are charged all the time. It's very, very rare.
 
Deacon923 said:
I'm not even sure the aggravating factor concept makes sense. There is no way that there is any deterrent value in hate crimes laws. If a guy hates another person bad enough to beat him up or kill him, the thug is not going to suddenly think to himself "oh no, if I do this because of my hatred for gays I'll get 30 years instead of just 20 years" and refrain from killing his victim.

Hate crimes laws are basically a symbolic statement by the government that certain types of attitudes will not be tolerated. That statement is actually directed at the victimized party, and not really at the victimizers. Basically it's a political statement to specified minority groups that "your government has your back". As such, it doesn't make much sense from the standpoint of penal policy, but if you view it in that lens the "blue lives matter" law actually begins to make sense. The state of Louisiana is just sending the same signals to emergency responders as it has (apparently) sent to specified religious and racial minorities.
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This is quite a phrase, given the context.

Wakeforest22890 said:
Good post. But then again there is a ton of research out there suggesting that once a sentence length reaches a certain point (around 8-10 years in some studies, others say it's slightly less and some say more) there is no increased deterrent value and that keeping individuals in prison for longer actually increases the chance of recidivism.
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Numbers is on to something here. If we're sending a message that "certain attitudes will not be tolerated" with "symbolic statements to the [victims]", I guess it doesn't matter if someone is rehabilitated. That's not the goal of a "zero tolerance" regime, apparently.

We're supposed to be against mass incarceration, unless someone has the wrong attitude. We're going to let the government use criminal sentencing procedures to right perceived societal wrongs. #yikes F is indeed for Fascism.
 
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RJKarl said:
But it keeps him off the streets for another 5-10 years.

Why is hate any less of an aggravating factor than laying in wait? Or committing a crime for financial purposes? Or using a weapon?

Why should using a pool cue in a bar fight increase the length of a sentence but planning to attack a person based on who they are not be? It seems to me planning the attack on person because their "group" is much more heinous than randomly picking up a pool cue or bottle in a bar fight or a rock in a street fight.

People have this concept that hate crimes are charged all the time. It's very, very rare.
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Even more rare is the crime motivated by love of the victim.
 
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