It's not all that new of a development. The gate houses went up when I was there in the late 90's, and a big criticism of the move was that Wake was alienating the community by literally shutting it out.
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This just isn't true. Wake has financial aid.
Agree that Wake needs to integrated itself into the Winston Salem community better. Lots of room for imporvement...
Strickland33
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Does anybody know the statistics pertaining to students' socioeconomic backgrounds? At a school as expensive as Wake, a lot of middle and upper middle class students get financial aid in amounts that would typically be delegated to lower middle and working class students at a less expensive school.
The problem with Wake and Winston-Salem is that, until VERY recently, Wake has never been interested in community engagement. By that, I don't mean the kumbaya/"save the poors!" nonsense, but taking a central role in helping to plan post-RJR Winston. It's just sad when Casstevens's Krispy Kreme was more involved in the downtown redevelopment than Wake. It took probably 5-6 years for Wake to even jump on the opportunity to build research campuses downtown. I don't know how far along they are in realizing those goals, but I heard from my Dad that the first buildings went up a couple of years ago.
Basically, until recently Winston was a blank slate for any group of investors who wanted to turn the place around, and Wake really could not have been bothered. It's a wasted opportunity, IMO. Wake should have been central to the efforts to redevelop downtown... Big-time fail from small-time leadership, if you ask me.
The worst part about it is that if you combine Wake's nationally-renowned schools and facilities with an embeddedness in a greater community, defined in part by research, creative, and arts sectors, then you have a much higher ceiling. That's a heck of a way to break out of the regionally-recognized crowd, IMO...
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Wake is ranked as the 34th best value college in the country by US News. http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandr...kings/national-universities/best-value/page+2
I'm not sure what you consider to be "VERY recently" but Wake began working on a research park downtown in the early 1990s and moved phys/pharm downtown in 1993. They opened their first new building downtown 13 years ago. You can read more here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_Forest_Innovation_Quarter
Wake is becoming a professional school for medicine and law. Spending over $200,000 for a [fill in blank for undergrad major here] is just damn stupid. REALLY damn stupid. But, somehow, this administration thinks our shit doesn't stink and people will pay the prices.
Btw, the list you cited is NOT impressive. We're behind Clarskson University. Super!
Strickland33
Well-known member
I didn't realize that Targacept was affiliated with Wake? I was referring to Biotech Place, btw, when I said very recently.
I was also referring to the entirety of the Downtown Plan, from the failed IMAX plaza to the stadium, light-rail, etc. That said, I haven't lived in Winston since 2005, so I'm only as up to date as my parents and siblings allow me to be. I was under the impression that Wake has largely kept out of the arts-and-culture/creative-sector revitalization of downtown.
It might seem like a good cause, but remember that UNC used these AHEC planes to fly Tyler Hansborough's mom all over the country with her boyfriend to watch her son Ben play basketball for Notre Dame. http://www.wral.com/Orange-DA-calls-for-outside-review-of-UNC-fundraisers-expenses/11802338/
I obviously don't know the parameters. But I do know that there are tons of lower middle income folks at Wake who will get out with sub-$30k in loans. And, your original statement was that only either stupid or rich people send their kids for Wake. Those anecdotes suggest otherwise.
Hell, my freshmen roommate's dad was a MD, and he was on work study.
ThinkingWithMyDeac
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The only one that is dumb as shit here is core and it appears he attended wake so he is extrapolating himself to account for everyone else
I'm sorry you disagree. However, if you care to argue as to why Wake has ingratiated itself with the community with a $50,000/year price tag, I will gladly read your thoughtful response.
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Strickland33
Well-known member
So, I got a neg-rep from Tobacco Road that I want to respond to on here:
I'm not saying (nor did I say anywhere in my post) that it was or is Wake's responsibility to rebuild downtown. I'm just saying that it was an opportunity, and one that could have paid serious dividends for the University, IMO. Even beyond the question of whether it would have been beneficial to Wake's branding, Wake's reputation to almost everybody outside of the south is that of a pretty campus in a boring city. Downtown Winston's transformation, and what you could call an economic and cultural renaissance, had very little to do with Wake IMO. I'm just pointing out that Wake might have had a lot to gain by being more involved in its development. We'll never know since it didn't happen, but most universities (hell, even the northeastern liberal arts college that I attended) are heavily invested in the cities that they're in... I hear that grads are starting to stay, which is nice for the city, but Wake's admin was a bit shortsighted, IMO.
For whatever reason, Wake never made the type of forays into downtown Winston, let alone Winston-Salem itself, that really distinguished itself as a player in the community. I know it's a sore subject and that this shouldn't have to be said twice, but it's obvious to just about everybody that Wake has a pretty horrible reputation in Winston-Salem, at large. It's always been my take, as it has with others on this thread, that the administration has fortified rather than open the campus to the community. Unless you grew up attending sports camps or some other related activity or had a parent/relative on staff or in school, I can't think of many reasons that townies go to campus. That's a shame given the cultural opportunities and gorgeous campus that are actually available to the public.
Downtown Winston-Salem is one of those things that the Winston (and Wake) old guard really missed the boat on... A lot of people, institutions, and organizations could have really profited, financially and otherwise, off of investing more heavily in downtown.
If you're a sunshine brigadier general and looking for something that Wake did right in the community, then I'd point to its role in the evolution of the Reynolda House...
I'm not saying (nor did I say anywhere in my post) that it was or is Wake's responsibility to rebuild downtown. I'm just saying that it was an opportunity, and one that could have paid serious dividends for the University, IMO. Even beyond the question of whether it would have been beneficial to Wake's branding, Wake's reputation to almost everybody outside of the south is that of a pretty campus in a boring city. Downtown Winston's transformation, and what you could call an economic and cultural renaissance, had very little to do with Wake IMO. I'm just pointing out that Wake might have had a lot to gain by being more involved in its development. We'll never know since it didn't happen, but most universities (hell, even the northeastern liberal arts college that I attended) are heavily invested in the cities that they're in... I hear that grads are starting to stay, which is nice for the city, but Wake's admin was a bit shortsighted, IMO.
For whatever reason, Wake never made the type of forays into downtown Winston, let alone Winston-Salem itself, that really distinguished itself as a player in the community. I know it's a sore subject and that this shouldn't have to be said twice, but it's obvious to just about everybody that Wake has a pretty horrible reputation in Winston-Salem, at large. It's always been my take, as it has with others on this thread, that the administration has fortified rather than open the campus to the community. Unless you grew up attending sports camps or some other related activity or had a parent/relative on staff or in school, I can't think of many reasons that townies go to campus. That's a shame given the cultural opportunities and gorgeous campus that are actually available to the public.
Downtown Winston-Salem is one of those things that the Winston (and Wake) old guard really missed the boat on... A lot of people, institutions, and organizations could have really profited, financially and otherwise, off of investing more heavily in downtown.
If you're a sunshine brigadier general and looking for something that Wake did right in the community, then I'd point to its role in the evolution of the Reynolda House...
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19deac92
You are a meathead.
He neg-repped me, too, (saying only "actually his coach loves Wake") and for the life of me I can't understand why.
Care to explain yourself in public, Tobacco Road?
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Tobacco Road
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That is cute. You neg repped me because I neg repped you. Strick, you have neg repped when I first came to the board, and I felt no need to retaliate. You are bitching about what Wake should have done without giving specifics and then admitted you are not up to date on Winston. What are the examples that your NE college did for its down? What are things Wake should do/have done? You got neg repped for bitching when it appears you don't know what you are talking about. Show other examples where small private colleges of less than 5K build/rebuild downtown areas like W-S. Not saying there isn't a role for Wake downtown, but they do lots on campus from an arts standpoint. Not sure why they should attract attention away from the campus.
As for explaining myself, Wake actually has a very good relationship with North Davidson. The idea that our community involvement is a reason that an ND player would not come to Wake is false. One piece of evidence being that their coach actually has a very high opinion of Wake. You got neg repped for bitching when you are wrong.
As for explaining myself, Wake actually has a very good relationship with North Davidson. The idea that our community involvement is a reason that an ND player would not come to Wake is false. One piece of evidence being that their coach actually has a very high opinion of Wake. You got neg repped for bitching when you are wrong.
myDeaconmyhand
First man to get a team of horses up Bear Mountain
Private university tuition is crazy expensive all over the country, Wake isn't unique or especially predatory in that regard.
zqglass
Well-known member
Nick Jarvis doesnt fucking count.
Strickland33
Well-known member
For the record, I'm not crying about rep. I also think that you have a weird understanding of bitching. (By way of bitching - meta, nice.)
Like I wrote, I wanted to clarify.
But, you're right. I don't live in Winston, but I grew up in Winston from the mid-80s until 2005. I was pretty involved in the downtown "scene" as a teenager when really all it had going for it was events at the Stevens Center and PS211 (now Krankies) and its offshoots (+/- the Trade-scene). Few people lived downtown at that point, and outside of pockets on Trade and Fourth (and Sawtooth), there really wasn't much going on. I remember the talks about BB&T and KK anchoring an entertainment complex featuring an IMAX movie theater as a serious discussion, at least before KK got Casstevensed. I don't know how many other posters had this experience, but downtown from 1990-2003 was fairly nonexistent. If you're looking for institutional impact downtown pre-2012 (until I get some clarification from Rafi about the posts above), then the School of the Arts and WSSU were both much more involved. For awhile, I was tangentially involved in some of the Downtown Plan talks because I was interested in their proposal for the commuter light-rail in my decision about where to relocate after graduation.
Miserable bedside manner aside, you bring up good points, T R. Why should Wake care? Why should Wake attract attention away from campus? What should Wake have done specifically?
They could have bought the Stevens Center and turned it into a performing arts hub downtown, running it similarly to how it seems they'll presumably manage LJVM. Also, they could have gotten started on the business and medical campuses earlier, taking advantage of the absurdly inexpensive abandoned or empty space, and perhaps even built downtown housing stock for graduate students and/or faculty members before loft living migrated south. They also could have done what my school did and buy up a ton of retail-zoned property (in our case, at least 15 city blocks of retail space contiguous to the campus and to the train station downtown) to steer downtown development in terms of utilities and services that would draw the campus community off-campus, which they have since used to great success as a recruiting tool for students. The exchange didn't work out so well, but the plan overall has boosted the profile of the University by highlighting the existence of college town-esque amenities. I can't think of many liberal arts colleges in the northeast and midwest that do not own significant amounts of real estate near their campuses or have significant influence on their respective local governments. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Whether that's Middlebury, Amherst, Swarthmore, Vassar, Macalester, etc. Wake's lack of community engagement/involvement is somewhat exceptional in my experience. Chalk it up, LOWF-style to the fact that the school is small and private, without a big endowment, all you want. Plenty of schools get more mileage out of their less than thrilling locales than Wake does. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.
My alma mater had well under 5k students (less than half of that number, to be precise, with only one graduate program and a sub-billion dollar endowment when I graduated) and it had a significant stake in rebuilding the downtown district in tandem with a slightly larger private university, local government, and public-private development interests. This involved pumping money and institutional resources into the actual redevelopment of the downtown district that had fallen into disrepair over the course of 25 years of disinvestment, building a university building off-campus (which is big deal when your college is compared to Hogwarts and in downtown with transportation connecting the campuses and the train station, taking down the walls that had previously cordoned off campus from the community-at-large, buying property and recruiting businesses that drew college students, creatives, and higher-brow suburban middle class folks into downtown. Likewise, the college invested in the revitalization of a local, historical theater that it uses for marquee arts performances and funds a program that brings up-and-coming theater from the neighboring big-city into a residency in an on-campus theater, for the community, as it's held over the summer summer. Furthermore and though I alluded to it above, the college was one of the bigger landlords on four retail strips contiguous to both the campus and downtown, and has a running partnership with local high schools to recruit high achieving students to campus, to take college courses and to enroll as students.
I'll throw your question back at you: why wouldn't Wake want a larger community presence in terms of their arts programs? You don't think the increased visibility in forums such as UNCSA and the Arts Society haven't been a boon to Wake's arts programs? Conversations with outsiders, including potential applicants and a classmate of mine who ended up working at Reynolda House Museum of American Art, albeit a nonexistent sample size would suggest that this isn't the case. Likewise, the fact that more students stay after graduation would speak to the importance of developing places for current students and alumni to build extended communities.
At the end of the day, I have no skin in this game. Clearly you do. Winston didn't have what I was looking for and so I left. A lot of people I grew up with (and their families) left, too. That said, a lot of people stayed and like it and I don't blame them. Winston has really grown, invested in its downtown, and has really attracted some amazing resources into a community that didn't have many of them before. If I was deciding to stay in Winston for college in 2013, then it would be a much harder decision. I have a lot of great memories there, and I still enjoy coming back.
That doesn't change the fact that the perception I alluded to exists (to, I believe) a significant proportion of the community) and is steeped, in many ways, by the fact that Wake was nonexistent player in Winston-Salem for a really long time. It sounds like things are changing for the better. The sports corridor and the emerging downtown campuses are steps in the right direction. It shouldn't have been difficult to see that in 1993. Or 1994. Or 1995. Or 199... You get the idea... That's all I'm saying.
I'm not an urban planner. Neither are you, I presume. Likewise, unless I'm misinformed, then neither of us sits on Wake's board or holds a seat in local government. Thus, it seems like we're equals on this issue. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If I am, then my apologies. If I'm not, then I'm entitled to my speculation and opinions on this issue. And you are yours. It's okay to disagree.
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TownieDeac
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Wake didn't have the dough in the late 90s/early 2000s to make a move downtown.
My mom worked at the Downtown Development Corp and Carolina Soccer Foundation, both of which sought improvements to downtown. The minor league baseball stadium is there partially as an alternative to a failed push for an MLS team. The DDC got some good public-private $, but in the end, hired a Memphis urban planning firm to help levy bonds and work with zoning boards and Winston's city planner on the completion of Albert Hall after the fire and really sparked the city's transformation.
Wake may not have helped as an institution, but I know almost every single trustee and their business did in the form of municipal bond support, vocal support, and in helping attract new businesses in development presentations. It's not quite as clear cut as "Wake helping downtown."
My mom worked at the Downtown Development Corp and Carolina Soccer Foundation, both of which sought improvements to downtown. The minor league baseball stadium is there partially as an alternative to a failed push for an MLS team. The DDC got some good public-private $, but in the end, hired a Memphis urban planning firm to help levy bonds and work with zoning boards and Winston's city planner on the completion of Albert Hall after the fire and really sparked the city's transformation.
Wake may not have helped as an institution, but I know almost every single trustee and their business did in the form of municipal bond support, vocal support, and in helping attract new businesses in development presentations. It's not quite as clear cut as "Wake helping downtown."