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Finally.....

Milhouse said:
the pack has some of the hallmarks of a dino coached team
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Even Dino didn't have players retweeting that he sucked: http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebask.../73628/t-j-warren-relays-anti-gottfried-tweet

(let me preemptively say yes, I know Twitter wasn't as ubiquitous when Dino coached)

This State team is simply a fraud. No depth, no defense, no heart. Gottfried is a good recruiter, but his seat is going to feel fairly warm without something to hang his hat on in the post-season in the next couple of years.
 
siff said:
I don't buy the argument about State's starters not being available. The Australian kid killed us. He only plays because the other guys are in foul trouble. We did look much better last night on the offensive end. Lots of easy layups and movement off the ball. Give credit where credit is due.
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Vandenberg stymied us defensively in his first half minutes. Then he sat for the first 12 min of the second half. Gottfried got outcoached last night, and it wasn't really that close.
 
I've been saying this for awhile. Our half court offensive sets are the best we have had here since odom. Maybe since Tacy who had really court sets. Buzz can coach Xs and Os. Give him that. He is not the long term answer but he does know the game.
 
DeacHead said:
Even Dino didn't have players retweeting that he sucked: http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebask.../73628/t-j-warren-relays-anti-gottfried-tweet

(let me preemptively say yes, I know Twitter wasn't as ubiquitous when Dino coached)

This State team is simply a fraud. No depth, no defense, no heart. Gottfried is a good recruiter, but his seat is going to feel fairly warm without something to hang his hat on in the post-season in the next couple of years.
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This is awesome.
 
Holy shit that is great. But yeah a guy who gets good players to come to the program, reaches elite status based on potential and talent, grabs a hallmark win, loses to shitty teams, and bangs co-eds? Hello, Dino.
 
State was very unfocused last night. During one of the reviews for the elbow, Leslie and two other players were down in front of our bench just shooting around instead of having them huddled up. The comparison to Dino is very apt. State was clearly more talented than us, but the early foul trouble combined with their seemingly carefree attitude gave us a chance to win. Credit to Buzz and the team for taking advantage of it.
 
diverdeac said:
I've been saying this for awhile. Our half court offensive sets are the best we have had here since odom. Maybe since Tacy who had really court sets. Buzz can coach Xs and Os. Give him that. He is not the long term answer but he does know the game.
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Again I ask, based on what? One game? Where have these X's and O's been the rest of the time he's been here? Good X's and O's lead to less talented teams beating more talented teams. That's exactly the opposite of what we've seen during Bz's tenure. We've been beat up and blown out by teams that recruit multiple levels below us.
 
RacerDeac said:
Again I ask, based on what? One game? Where have these X's and O's been the rest of the time he's been here? Good X's and O's lead to less talented teams beating more talented teams. That's exactly the opposite of what we've seen during Bz's tenure. We've been beat up and blown out by teams that recruit multiple levels below us.
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I don't imagine that there are statistics for half court scoring but I have watched a ton of basketball and this team and to a lesser extent last years moved the ball well. Clemson Ty missed 3 pick and pops and then it deteriorated. Against va tech we got great looks. We have more back door lay ups with buzz than I can remember in the past. This is only one aspect of the game but from what I've seen our sets now put the ball in position to be scored more than in the past.
 
diverdeac said:
I don't imagine that there are statistics for half court scoring but I have watched a ton of basketball and this team and to a lesser extent last years moved the ball well. Clemson Ty missed 3 pick and pops and then it deteriorated. Against va tech we got great looks. We have more back door lay ups with buzz than I can remember in the past. This is only one aspect of the game but from what I've seen our sets now put the ball in position to be scored more than in the past.
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Got ya...it's a feeling and not based on results or stats. You've convinced me.
 
RacerDeac said:
Again I ask, based on what? One game? Where have these X's and O's been the rest of the time he's been here? Good X's and O's lead to less talented teams beating more talented teams. That's exactly the opposite of what we've seen during Bz's tenure. We've been beat up and blown out by teams that recruit multiple levels below us.
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We've really been running some good sets now for weeks. Even against Clemson we were getting good shots. The freshmen are starting to convert those shots, and now we cross our fingers that it continues.
 
RacerDeac said:
Got ya...it's a feeling and not based on results or stats. You've convinced me.
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No one really has the stats to show this. I think the Houston Rockets actually have their own analysts track good shots vs. Bad shots for all teams and players, but this isn't public data you're going to find.

You could try something like scoring out of the half court, but that leaves a lot to be desired.
 
Our offense looks better when we make shots and don't throw the ball away.
 
TexasDeac10 said:
No one really has the stats to show this. I think the Houston Rockets actually have their own analysts track good shots vs. Bad shots for all teams and players, but this isn't public data you're going to find.

You could try something like scoring out of the half court, but that leaves a lot to be desired.
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You could try something like wins. My point is that for all of the X's and O's Bz supposedly brings to the table, we've look pretty disorganized over most of his time at Wake. We haven't beaten or even competed with more skilled teams as a superior X's and O's team should. On the contrary, we've been beaten by and even blown out by teams with less talent. We've completely botched some end game situations where an X's and O's coach should shine. We've been bad at rebounding...AND bad at transition D in the same game. We've made bad substitutions over and over, we've lacked halftime adjustments (multiple games have gotten quickly out of hand in the first 5 minutes after the half), we've gone on minutes long scoring droughts without adjustments, and we've had other coaches publicly call out the exact plays we were going to run before we even ran them. More blowout losses than I care to count. Are these the hallmarks of a coach who really knows his X's and O's, or, now that our freshmen have gained a little confidence, stopped turning the ball over and started making some shots, are we projecting their success onto some mythical X's and O's that Bz teaches? If anything, Bz seems more like Dino...recruited some good players with potential but can't coach them. Only, we've been told by multiple folks that Battle is the reason most of these kids chose Wake, so Bz can't take much credit there either.

After the Clemson game, I was told by Bz fans that our bad shooting wasn't Bz's fault. He doesn't take the shots. After the State game, the same posters claim our offense (the product of shots falling far more often than they have in the past) was directly related to Bz's X's and O's. Never mind the scoring drought and nearly botched end game situation that nearly handed the game back to State after having a comfortable lead. It's hilarious. 3 seasons of crap, highlighted by ONE meaningful win, and all of the sudden we're wanting to paint Bz as a great coach. Do you people have trouble remembering what you ate for breakfast this morning too?
 
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"You could try something like wins"

smh...

I understand your point that, for a coach to receive your praises, he needs to pile up wins. You're not going to find a lot of dissenters to that opinion. But the discussion has been solely about how to measure the value of a team's offensive schemes, and you're completely missing the boat here. Strictly speaking, a "good" offensive scheme is one that gets you the most good shots. Circling back to that Houston Rockets thing I was talking about earlier, Daryl Morey has said his analysts chart out all the shots and give them binary "good/bad" ratings. By their estimation, NBA teams are getting "good" shots at something like a 55% or 60% clip. Thus, if Morey's own team is getting them at an above-average clip, he's pleased with the offensive schemes. Notice that the actual offensive output doesn't factor at all into this assessment; the exercise is to strip player talent out from the equation and try to measure exactly what gains a coach's offensive scheme is giving you.

That's why I said we just don't have any good statistics to measure this stuff, to which you toolishly responded, "wins." There are bad teams that run good offenses, and there are good teams that run terrible offenses. Separating out when player talent is masking a coach's deficiencies or exacerbating them is the problem, and you have given no solution.
 
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