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First They Came For...

legacyfan

legacyfan

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First they came for the communists
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew

Then they cam for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me

Pastor Martin Niemoller (1892-1984) Speaking about the Nazi takeover.

I was ashamed of myself last night. (I still am to be honest.) Here on these boards where I can be anonymous I will spout off about the injustice (I see) in yesterday's vote. I will talk at length with people I know feel the way I do about politics and religion. But my fear of having anything come back to bite me on the ass made me too chickenshit to post anything on Facebook. My fear of causing waves makes me keep my mouth shut when people I work with spout off about how they feel about the attack on marriage by the gays. In my heart I know that I missed the mark yesterday, and all the days leading up to that vote.

I feel as though I should apologize to DHD, and others like him. (Not gay, or not JUST gay, but people who worked to fight this amendment.) I voted, but otherwise remained silent on the side lines.

So here it is: I am sorry. I should have - could have done more.
 
I have seen more action and compassion from my fellow Deacs than I ever could have imagined. Carry your compassion and desire for justice forward as this fight is far from over. Educating people and being patient with them is the greatest contribution anyone can provide.
 
DieHardDeacon said:
I have seen more action and compassion from my fellow Deacs than I ever could have imagined. Carry your compassion and desire for justice forward as this fight is far from over. Educating people and being patient with them is the greatest contribution anyone can provide.
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I think a "Fuck Amendment 1" banner would be a good addition to the tailgate this fall.
 
legacyfan said:
First they came for the communists
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew
Then they cam for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me

.
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Just because you oppose this amendment doesn't mean that you're gay. I don't quite understand the analogy.
 
I never paid much attention to this issue previously, but seeing the thoughts of people I know and respect on facebook really got me to reflect some on my own ideals. I came to the conclusion that none of the reasons being used to support this Amendment were justifiable, from either a Christian perspective or a conservative perspective, and I felt strongly enough about it to say so on my facebook account. I'm glad I did (and I'm glad I took the time to think about this issue).
 
BoogityBoogity said:
Just because you oppose this amendment doesn't mean that you're gay. I don't quite understand the analogy.
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When a government starts limiting the rights of it's citizens it doesn't start with the majority. You go after the fringe first, the ones you can get... oh say 60% of the population to get behind on limiting their rights. Once you marginalize enough of the fringe groups you then start dividing the majority along other lines. This is why they say that when freedom falls it will not be fought with bullets, but met with cheers. (Did you see some of the footage of the "victors"?)
 
BoogityBoogity said:
Just because you oppose this amendment doesn't mean that you're gay. I don't quite understand the analogy.
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Doesn't matter if you're gay, it's about supporting what is "right" rather than just what affects you.
 
You are obviously passionate about the amendment. You keep saying it is limiting the rights. What rights are currently limited that weren't already limited before the amendment. I am asking this not because I am defending the amendment, I sincerely don't know. I know that gay marriage was already illegal, this amendment pretty much restates that, but instead of it simply being illegal it adds it to the Constitution which would make overturning it a much more difficult issue.

But what rights that were held by gay North Carolinians on May 7th are no longer held by gay North Carolinians on May 9th (or whenever this amendment goes into effect)? Again - realize I am not trying to be combative, I simply want to know. I am in the rare position of completely and wholely disagreeing with gay marriage as an institution, yet also would vote against the amendment simply because I think it is redundant and people don't really know what they are voting for (including me), and in addition I think i would like to move the government away from defining marriage as I think the long term consequences of that authority would be bad for Christians. As someone who doesn't live in the state anymore, educate me on what rights were taken away. Thanks.
 
Wrangor, I know that you and I just can't see eye to eye on this subject.

1) How did it limit rights?
Marriage between one man and one woman is the only domestic legal union that shall be valid or recognized in this State...

Common law partnetships no longer recognized. (They were before, now they are not... limiting rights.) I am not smart enough to understand all of the legal ramifications, but I did read some things from when Ohio passed this law that made my hair stand on end with regards to domestic abuse and so forth.

2) By making this a constitutional amendment, you are truly marginalizing a population in the highest law of the state. How is that not limiting rights? (Also you did away with even giving the chance for civil unions - again, limiting rights.)
 
A huge black mark on the people of North Carolina. Is was not enough to ban gan marriage, an archaically discriminatory act in-and-of itself. It had to be taken to the extreme, and remove the legal recognition of civil unions as well, which will extend the pain to children and families. Shameful day for my home state.
 
All of this combined with NC's aleady obscene tax code makes me want to get out of here ASAP.
 
legacyfan said:
Wrangor, I know that you and I just can't see eye to eye on this subject.

1) How did it limit rights?
Marriage between one man and one woman is the only domestic legal union that shall be valid or recognized in this State...

Common law partnetships no longer recognized. (They were before, now they are not... limiting rights.) I am not smart enough to understand all of the legal ramifications, but I did read some things from when Ohio passed this law that made my hair stand on end with regards to domestic abuse and so forth.

2) By making this a constitutional amendment, you are truly marginalizing a population in the highest law of the state. How is that not limiting rights? (Also you did away with even giving the chance for civil unions - again, limiting rights.)
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Yeah, no way we see eye to eye on the whole gay marriage thing. Would rather just stick to information on the rights issue.

When RJ says the amendment puts bigotry into the constitution of NC that isn't helpful, because that is just calling me a bigot. The 'bigotry' was already there in that gay marriage was illegal. Seems to me that employers were finding ways around the gay marriage ban by allowing for common law partnerships to be recognized for benefits. I guess now that it is in the Constitution that the current law (which already banned gay marriages) will be strictly enforced? Is that the main ramification?

Enforcing no gay marriage means:
1. Removing loop hole to provide benefits to common law partnership
2. ???
3. ???
4. ???

Again - I am not arguing FOR the amendment, I am just looking for REAL results of this thing. The namecalling isn't going to do me any good when I have conversations with my friends about this topic. Real facts matter. Calling people bigots does not inform or change opinions. Planting the reality of the decision, and the consequences of the decision and then allowing that information to grow and bear the fruit of a changed mind is what is effective. Calling people bigots is like yelling at a piece of dirt to turn into tomatoes. Instead plant some seeds, water it, care for it, and see what comes. It might not always bear fruit, but it is the only way you have a chance. This is the same approach I take with witnessing about Jesus. Yelling at someone or calling them names never works. Give me some seeds of information to plant when I am discussing this. You are obviously fired up.
 
I really have no desire to "nurture" someone who is still against government recognition of gay marriage (or at least civil union/domestic partnership benefits) in freaking 2012. If they can't see why that is bigoted, I really don't know what to tell them. I can't see their perspective at all, so I have no idea what I would tell them.
 
Wrangor said:
Yeah, no way we see eye to eye on the whole gay marriage thing. Would rather just stick to information on the rights issue.

When RJ says the amendment puts bigotry into the constitution of NC that isn't helpful, because that is just calling me a bigot. The 'bigotry' was already there in that gay marriage was illegal. Seems to me that employers were finding ways around the gay marriage ban by allowing for common law partnerships to be recognized for benefits. I guess now that it is in the Constitution that the current law (which already banned gay marriages) will be strictly enforced? Is that the main ramification?

Enforcing no gay marriage means:
1. Removing loop hole to provide benefits to common law partnership
2. ???
3. ???
4. ???

Again - I am not arguing FOR the amendment, I am just looking for REAL results of this thing. The namecalling isn't going to do me any good when I have conversations with my friends about this topic. Real facts matter. Calling people bigots does not inform or change opinions. Planting the reality of the decision, and the consequences of the decision and then allowing that information to grow and bear the fruit of a changed mind is what is effective. Calling people bigots is like yelling at a piece of dirt to turn into tomatoes. Instead plant some seeds, water it, care for it, and see what comes. It might not always bear fruit, but it is the only way you have a chance. This is the same approach I take with witnessing about Jesus. Yelling at someone or calling them names never works. Give me some seeds of information to plant when I am discussing this. You are obviously fired up.
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Here's a link that shows the possible effects of this amendment:

http://www.protectncfamilies.org/content/get-informed

It's not just about "enforcing no gay marriage." You know that, right?
 
From four professors of law at North Carolina University http://www.acluofnc.org/files/Final Marriage Amendment Report 2.pdf

VIII. CONCLUSION
If approved by North Carolina General Assembly, the proposed Amendment’s impact on
North Carolina citizens and on the state could be extensive and severe. The Amendment does not
simply ensure that judges cannot overturn North Carolina’s existing prohibitions against samesex marriage, as supporters claim. Rather, the vague and untested language of the Amendment
could be interpreted to prohibit the government from recognizing legal rights and protections for
all unmarried couples – same-sex or opposite sex. The Amendment could prevent courts from
enforcing private agreements between unmarried couples, and end-of-life arrangements, such as
wills, trusts and powers of attorney executed by unmarried couples; unsettle current custody law;
invalidate rights and protections currently provided to unmarried couples under North Carolina’s
domestic violence laws; undercut municipalities’ decisions to recognize domestic partnerships,

same-sex partners provided in the private sector. That is particularly true if the Michigan Supreme
Court accepts a Shelley-type analysis of its own role in adjudicating private same-sex agreements.40
and undermine private employers’ efforts to attract top employees to North Carolina by
providing employee benefits to domestic partners. It certainly will spur litigation, discourage
same-sex and opposite-sex unmarried couples from living and working in North Carolina,
adversely affect the ability of North Carolina businesses to attract talented employees, and
encourage individuals seeking to undo their legal obligations to flock to North Carolina courts
for relief.
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Don't try to convince me that gay marriage is not immoral. Obviously you know that I believe the Bible teaches it to be. I am the best resource you have to be honest if you want Amendments like this to never take place. I am a Bible believing, creationist, who believes that the government should get out of the marriage business. You don't have a more effective weapon in your arsenal. So give me some real results of this amendment passing so that when I get into conversations about why this was bad legislation I can properly inform them. Calling me a bigot might make you feel warm and fuzzy all over, but it does nothing to turn the political tide against people having their healthcare options limited because of bad legislation.
 
Wrangor said:
Don't try to convince me that gay marriage is not immoral. Obviously you know that I believe the Bible teaches it to be. I am the best resource you have to be honest if you want Amendments like this to never take place. I am a Bible believing, creationist, who believes that the government should get out of the marriage business. You don't have a more effective weapon in your arsenal. So give me some real results of this amendment passing so that when I get into conversations about why this was bad legislation I can properly inform them. Calling me a bigot might make you feel warm and fuzzy all over, but it does nothing to turn the political tide against people having their healthcare options limited because of bad legislation.
Click to expand...

Real results of this amendment passing? You mean other than the fact that gay people wouldn't be able to have the same rights and benefits as straight people? Is that really not enough for you and other people?
 
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