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Gingrich Detonates Inconvenient Truth re War on Poverty

Well if it wasn't the business climate, I can't wait to hear you explain why the factories left Detroit. This should be awesome.

eta: Also, it appears the zero tolerance policy on hyperbole didn't last long. You really don't believe there is "any" nexus between the high tax rates and the loss of manufacturing base? I mean, I know you can't actually, but why is it so hard for you to say so?

Just showing descriptive statistics does not show a causal relationship between factors.

If I say "the sky is blue" does that in itself explain why the sky is blue? No.
 
I'm arguing with someone who asserts--confidently---that municipal malpractice that has a city $20BILLION in unfunded obligations isn't relevant to whether or not you want to operate a business there. Says it isn't relevant to "any" point I made. This person then proceeds to claim to "debunk" a fact that he immediately concedes is so self-evident as to be beneath Deacman to even attempt to have to persuade, namely, to try to prove the truism that the Detroit public schools system is failing. Points for temerity, I guess.

Let's just say I've had to recalibrate my expectations.

So how about you? Would you want to operate a factory in a city in receivership? $20B in debt?

No, but thats an obvious question that you're wasting your time asking. You're arguing a point that no one disputes. Where our disagreement with you lays is your misattribution of Detroit's current problems. The huge privately employed tax base that supported Detroit's huge public sector is gone, and left 15 years ago. Some of that is due to manufacturing automation, some of that is due to American auto makers getting their asses kicked by japan, and some of its due to Unionization demands helping keep Detroit uncompetitive. The tax dependent Detroit economy obviously became unsustainable the minute that Detroit manufacturing died. This may be UN-PC, but what you have left in Detroit are the dregs of society who couldn't afford to leave, and those families of retired public workers who planned their future around a pension. Any stats you try and draw from that remaining population are of course going to be sad

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No, but thats an obvious question that you're wasting your time asking. You're arguing a point that no one disputes. Where our disagreement with you lays is your misattribution of Detroit's current problems. The huge privately employed tax base that supported Detroit's huge public sector is gone, and left 15 years ago. Some of that is due to manufacturing automation, some of that is due to American auto makers getting their asses kicked by japan, and some of its due to Unionization demands helping keep Detroit uncompetitive. The tax dependent Detroit economy obviously became unsustainable the minute that Detroit manufacturing died. This may be UN-PC, but what you have left in Detroit are the dregs of society who couldn't afford to leave, and those families of retired public workers who planned their future around a pension. Any stats you try and draw from that remaining population are of course going to be sad

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I am left to wonder why PhDeac states that I don't have "any" point in drawing the connection. He's prone to hyperbole, I suppose.

I agree the Detroit automakers took huge lumps from Japanese automakers, but how many of those "Japanese" cars are being made in the low tax places in the SE US? Look at those maps. Why not Detroit? Certainly not a lack of indigenous labor up to the task.
 
NC apportions income using a 3 factor apportionment. the percentage of payroll in the state/payroll everywhere, the percentage of average of property in the state/the average of property everywhere, and double weighted percentage of sales in the state/sales everywhere.

States that are more business friendly to job creation have moved to single sales apportionment. Since your operations in state are going to drive up your payroll and property factors in the state, then single sales is more favorable to domestic companies and less favorable to foreign companies doing business in your state.

This change was in some of the early tax overhaul discussion, but got killed, because it apparently isn't sexy enough.

Good info. Tnx

And for the large companies that JHMD is talking about, this has a much bigger factor on their state cash tax expense than the tax rate in NC.
 
I am left to wonder why PhDeac states that I don't have "any" point in drawing the connection. He's prone to hyperbole, I suppose.

I agree the Detroit automakers took huge lumps from Japanese automakers, but how many of those "Japanese" cars are being made in the low tax places in the SE US? Look at those maps. Why not Detroit? Certainly not a lack of indigenous labor up to the task.

I already explained it above. You can't post y and claim you posted y = mx + b.
 
I am left to wonder why PhDeac states that I don't have "any" point in drawing the connection. He's prone to hyperbole, I suppose.

I agree the Detroit automakers took huge lumps from Japanese automakers, but how many of those "Japanese" cars are being made in the low tax places in the SE US? Look at those maps.

1. Japanese autos stopped being cheaper than American autos more than a decade ago
2. The top Asian auto makers build much more than cars, so their auto divisions don't demand as high a profit margin.
3. Cheap labor in the South is not a recent development. The rising costs of trans oceanic shipping have driven foreign car manufacturing here, not cheap labor.

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I already explained it above. You can't post y and claim you posted y = mx + b.

Then what did it? What is motivating Boeing to move to South Carolina, if not business and regulatory climate?
 
1. Japanese autos stopped being cheaper than American autos more than a decade ago
2. The top Asian auto makers build much more than cars, so their auto divisions don't demand as high a profit margin.
3. Cheap labor in the South is not a recent development. The rising costs of trans oceanic shipping have driven foreign car manufacturing here, not cheap labor.

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What's "here"? Why Alabama instead of Michigan? Same side of the Pacific, right?

ETA: What if Chicago follows? http://www.wnd.com/2013/08/will-chicago-follow-detroit-into-bankruptcy/
2,400 cities employees pulling down six figure salaries, but the pensions are $19.5B down. What is motivating the "exodus of higher income residents" from Chicago?
 
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Detroit's demise is totally due to its decades of democratic mayors. The invention of the computer and automated manufacturing has nothing to do with it.

I have no idea why you keep making this point. It's dumb. We all know there were lots of factors that put Detroit in its current spot. But Detroit is a city in a state. And it's well being is not reflective of the well being of the entire metro area. No doubt MI as a state is not in good shape. But Detroit's issues make Michigan's status look nirvana. That's the reason I posted so many stats about Detroit vs. Michigan generally. And no matter how much you want to pretend the political climate in Detroit didn't play a big roll in Detroit's problems, the facts bear out otherwise. Leaders set policies and policies have consequences. And the policies of Detroit's leaders, over a period of decades, played a very large roll in Detroit's current stature.

Detroit reached a tipping point along the way. The policies of raising taxes higher and higher, borrowing more and more and doing nothing to encourage investment in the city so that it would have a tax base which could provide basic services and support the safety of its citizens has led us to the Detroit of today relative to the broader metro area. Coleman Young led Detroit to junk bond status. The citizens who paid the bills voted with their feet. They fled to the suburbs or out of the state. And now what remains is a shell of a city that 60 years ago had the highest per capita income in the nation. Bankrupt, vacant, ridiculous levels of poverty and unemployment, horrible schools, little social structure, no social services, little public safety.

And you probably should read up on some of those "leaders". I'd start here courtesy of the Washington Post.

And less you drone on further about manufacturing. There are LOTS of auto plants that have been built in the United States over the last 40 years. Almost all of them were built in right to work states.

I'll leave it to others to tell you the last time Detroit has a republican mayor. I wonder if it ever did.

"The finger-pointing for Detroit’s decades of decline usually starts with the 1967 race riots. High pensions for unionized workers get its share of the blame, as does the global economic trends that upended the auto industry. Meanwhile, racial politics and white flight to the suburbs rightly earn a place as a driver of the city’s blight.

But so much focus on what happened can leave behind the “who.” Yes, a confluence of economic and cultural forces unquestionably led to Detroit‘s decline and its filing, on Thursday, for the largest municipal bankruptcy in the history of the United States. But Detroit also failed as a city because of the leaders who failed Detroit.

Some names are obvious. There is former mayor Kwame Kilpatrick, who could face 20 years in prison after being convicted for crimes such as extortion, bribery and racketeering. Obviously, decades of decline preceded the “hip-hop mayor,” but the corruption of his tenure certainly didn’t help. While Kilpatrick was in office, Detroit’s credit ratings returned to junk status.

There is Coleman Young, the combative five-term mayor who led the city for what Daniel Okrent has called, in Time, a “corrosive two-decade rule of a black politician who cared more about retribution than about resurrection.” Though Young’s tenure is caught up in racial divisiveness that some believe make him misunderstood, it’s clear he stayed in office for far too long, did little to try and mend fences broken down along racial lines, and led the city when its debt rating first reached junk status.

But it would be simplistic to point only to two elected officials. This is a city where, for decades, delusional auto industry executives ignored global economic forces, attempts at regulation, and consumer needs and tastes, refusing to evolve their business until it was far too late. It’s a city where union leaders have long held unrealistic and short-sighted goals which, combined with their unparalleled power, exacerbated the industry’s problems and the city’s employment prospects.

It’s a city where some of the region’s representatives in Washington have historically been so defending of those industries and their unions that they failed to diversify its economic base. Here’s Okrent again, admitting other politicians have done the same but reserving a special enmity for the country’s longest-serving Congressman, Rep. John Dingell (D-Mich.): “By so ably satisfying the wishes of the auto industry–by encouraging southeastern Michigan’s reliance on this single, lumbering mastodon–Dingell has in fact played a signal role in destroying Detroit.”
More recently, this is a city where there have been five police chiefs in five years. Where a report by the city’s emergency manager called Detroit’s operations “dysfunctional and wasteful after years of budgetary restrictions, mismanagement, crippling operational practices, and, in some cases, indifference or corruption.” Where one city council member walked away from his mortgage, mailing in his keys and abandoning yet another home in Detroit, while another was stripped of the council’s presidency after disappearing amid allegations of an inappropriate relationship with a teenager. (No charges have been filed, and the teen’s family has asked the police to suspend its investigation, but the former council president’s accounts are being audited.)

This is a city where leaders have failed it time and time again. One can only hope that its extraordinarily powerful emergency financial manager, Kevyn Orr; the next mayor of Detroit (its current one gets credit for some of his efforts, but has already said he won’t run for reelection); and any more of the Motor City’s other leaders do not in this time of great need."
 
Again, you're arguing with yourself. You shouldn't pretend to know the margins that drive business. Simply because the lowest bidder wins doesn't mean that a higher bid couldn't have won. Do you think Met Life decided to move their business when McCrory's cronies offered up 94 million, or do you think they decided to move, and McCrory's cronies offered the largest tax cut? Southern states are on their knees sucking cocks to attract business because they know their voting base will let them. How will that 94 million dollars affect the nearly 10 million North Carolinians who will never work for Met Life, who "may" hire 2400 north carolinians by the end of 2015. Of course you don't give a fuck because 1 new-ish pair of bootstraps is worth 10 people going hungry or not getting expanded Medicaid benefits

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The right likes to put up apples and try to convince you they are lobsters by yelling it over and over. Let's look at a few reasons they never bring up:

1. A company that has been in business for 80-100 years will have much longer term employees and retirement costs than those who have been around 10-25 years. It's very basic.

2.When Kia, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai come to America they are also receiving subsidies from their own governments.

3. When new manufacturers come to any state they are given tax breaks from those states. If your plant has been there 50-100 years you don't get those same breaks.

The #1 cause of Detroit's failure is the business class of Detroit and of Michigan to diversify and keep up with the times. Had they done their job rather than cannibalizing for profits, much of this could have been avoided.
 
This. Detroit was not allowed to adapt so it was left behind.

By "adapt" do you mean cut the wages, benefits, and negotiating power of its labor force to compete with companies working in a completely different stage of.the industrial revolution? So basically your answer for Detroit was that they needed to go back in time and compete with countries paying their employees pre-WW2 wages to operate advanced manufacturing technology. That most certainly is the answer. Go hop in your Delorean and let Detroit know.

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This. Detroit was not allowed to adapt so it was left behind.

By "adapt" do you mean cut the wages, benefits, and negotiating power of its labor force to compete with companies working in a completely different stage of.the industrial revolution? So basically your answer for Detroit was that they needed to go back in time and compete with countries paying their employees pre-WW2 wages to operate advanced manufacturing technology. That most certainly is the answer. Go hop in your Delorean and let Detroit know.

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There is no way I would take a valuable car to Detroit. Besides, the Libyans gave up their WMD under Bush in the wake of the invasion of Iraq.
 
What do you all not understand about the fact that American manufacturing is operating in America? Wages can't just stagnate for years against inflation so that American companies can compete

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Solve for x.

Yeah I'm not sure why a state is supposed to be proud of being the lowest bidder. As if their previously enacted tax legislation was just for funsies.

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